The British National Party

[Whaleboy]

Um...sort of. We seem to be blurring the line between foreigners and different races. I wouldn't call black Americans "foreigners" - in fact I am the foreigner around here.

Please define that, unless you believe a nation to be comprised of a race, which is diabolically problematic.

[Solly]

"Please define that, unless you believe a nation to be comprised of a race, which is diabolically problematic."

What is a nation?

[Derekrage]

I would, based on my reading on the subject and the opinions of my ex-forces friends (Irish Guards, Signals and RAF, if you're interested). Overwhelmingly white, with unquestioning obedience being an embedded value, etc.

I would like to know how on earth you came to the conclusion that I have had a sheltered life. What the hell is a sheltered life anyway? If you mean that I have been sheltered away from multi-culturism then you are wrong. The high school that I went to had a hell of a lot of arabs and blacks, which was extremely rare at the time especially in the North East.

This is paranoid nonsense. Get outside of the cities and you'll barely see any coloured faces- Britain is overwhelmingly white. In any event, how many black or Asian people do you see burning flags? You're frothing at the attitudes of a tiny minority of a minority.

Paranoid? Maybe... Nonsence? No. I have seen the effects of a segragated society in Northern Ireland and it ain't pretty. No matter how much you are in favour of multi-culturism, you have to admit that some people are not being assimilated, this is leading to a ghettho like system in some areas. The only way to stop this spreading is put into effect a 'keep out' policy on immigration, this is the only sure way of making sure that a Northern Ireland situation does not appear in British cities. Now I know that there is a lot of arabs and africans etc. living here now, but with an education campaign focused on making them more British, not trying to make the majority adapt to their cultures, then this idea of multi-culturism will slowly die anyway.

Why is that not a preferable solution? The people already here will not be oppressed in anyway at all, it alleviates some British people's fears(like me ) that white people will become a minority within Britain in the decades to come and it will put an end to the fears of the minorities that a Nazi like government will be elected.

[Solly]

Derek, what do you think of the plans to gas the whole of Old Trafford on Saturday (a Muslim plot)?

[Whaleboy]

What is a nation?

A state, with a population contained with a specified geographical location, laws applying throughout that nation and a government recognised as a political entity by itself and others.

Paranoid? Maybe... Nonsence? No. I have seen the effects of a segragated society in Northern Ireland and it ain't pretty. No matter how much you are in favour of multi-culturism, you have to admit that some people are not being assimilated, this is leading to a ghettho like system in some areas.

I don't think it's a case of either/or. Assimilation is not an option because many will not want to submit, nor would you if the situation were reversed. Mutual education so all are better able to understand each other, so to speak, is a simple premise for any notion of communication.

A keep-out policy would only serve to alienate the people that are already here, not to mention negate the many advantages of a properly implimented multi-cultural policy.

Now I know that there is a lot of arabs and africans etc. living here now, but with an education campaign focused on making them more British, not trying to make the majority adapt to their cultures, then this idea of multi-culturism will slowly die anyway.

You have immediately now set up your proposal to failure, since humans will not submit to such a thing.

Why is that not a preferable solution? The people already here will not be oppressed in anyway at all

But they will. You put a keep-out sign on the door, the people here will be hostile to those they think got in before the door closed.

it alleviates some British people's fears(like me ) that white people will become a minority within Britain in the decades to come and it will put an end to the fears of the minorities that a Nazi like government will be elected.

Current trends would not continue and white people would continue to be a majority, though there would be larger minorities. I have no problem whatsoever with that, and still fail to see why I should. Perhaps you could explain?

it will put an end to the fears of the minorities that a Nazi like government will be elected

The BNP or Nazism... some choice

[Whaleboy]

Derek, what do you think of the plans to gas the whole of Old Trafford on Saturday (a Muslim plot)?

A terrorist plot. The fact that Muslims were behind it is consequential. I suggest you revise your notion of necessary and sufficient conditiosn (being an economist you should be very familiar with those). Do you think that act was representative of Islam?

[Solly]

"The fact that Muslims were behind it is consequential"

I agree.

"Do you think that act was representative of Islam?"

Yes. Without Islam it would never have been planned.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


They must be educated to obey the law, and use the freedoms granted by this society, in something of an existentialist sense the notion of responsibility of freedom, including the potency of its use (free speech). As for customs, I disagree. If you educate them in a particular way of life, then you are assimilating them, which will fail in a blaze of fury. Educating them about the variant set of British customs however, is a more productive approach in my opinion.

It really depends on the age of the individuals being brought over. If they are young they will be far more likely to assimilate. Older immigrants, however, will have already assumed the culture of their home country.

Perhaps I should give an example of what I mean when I say they should be expected to live in accordance with the customs of the surrogate nation. For instance, immigrants to the USA should be aware that it is the custom to leave a tip at a restaurant. It's not good enough for them to say "that's not how it works where I come from", they must conform to the generally accepted customs of their new home.

The idea of specimen in my opinion is too subjective, since the benefits of cultural diversity have to be two way, on the sociological level that is. Furthermore, since integration occurs on the individual level (we can only measure it on the sociological), we have to consider each individual as equal. I'm not about to stratify people if they are not citizens of a particular nation.

Don't you think it's a bit unrealistic to consider candidates for immigration as equally valuable when they clearly aren't? It's a fact that some countries provide more skilled individuals than others, so why wouldn't you encourage more immigrants from countries that have provided these in the past? Of course you still need to consider every individual on their merits, but it would be foolish not to spend the govt resources that have been allocated to immigration in the areas that yield the best results.

The "degenerates" are on both sides, and are, in my opinion, symptomatic of a bad multicultural policy, that further help to worsen the situation. Examples include a small number of fanatical Muslims, and the BNP.

Of course there are degenerates on both sides, but we are talking about immigrants, are we not?

If immigration policy was more selective, I think we can agree that there would be far less for groups like the BNP to complain about.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


Please define that, unless you believe a nation to be comprised of a race, which is diabolically problematic.

Define what? Foreigners?

[Whaleboy]

Yes. Without Islam it would never have been planned.

Without oxygen it would never have been planned. That is the same chain of reasoning that you are using. Of course, Muslims are an easier target for you

Perhaps I should give an example of what I mean when I say they should be expected to live in accordance with the customs of the surrogate nation. For instance, immigrants to the USA should be aware that it is the custom to leave a tip at a restaurant. It's not good enough for them to say "that's not how it works where I come from", they must conform to the generally accepted customs of their new home.

To use that example, they should be told that that is the custom, but given the same freedom to do so, or not, that people that are already here have. These people are still adults.

Don't you think it's a bit unrealistic to consider candidates for immigration as equally valuable when they clearly aren't?

I never said that. What I am saying is that we shouldnt accept them on the basis of value, since, such is the nature of the individual, we cannot know it, much less quantify it to the degree required to do what you suggest. However, its the kind of thing you can qualify to some degree AFTER education.

Of course there are degenerates on both sides, but we are talking about immigrants, are we not?

I'm talking about the solution to the problems of multiculturalism, to which immigration is a part, but considerations of the "natives" and the immigrants is key.

[Whaleboy]

Define what? Foreigners?

Look at what you wrote. "Foreigners" and race.

[Whaleboy]

I find it most intriguing that we aren't addressing the other issues I wrote about in my initial post

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Whaleboy

To use that example, they should be told that that is the custom, but given the same freedom to do so, or not, that people that are already here have. These people are still adults.

Obviously they will have the freedom to make their own choices, but they should be expected to follow generally accepted customs.

I never said that. What I am saying is that we shouldnt accept them on the basis of value, since, such is the nature of the individual, we cannot know it, much less quantify it to the degree required to do what you suggest. However, its the kind of thing you can qualify to some degree AFTER education.

You don't think we can know the value of an individual wrt their prospects of success as an immigrant? Of course we can!

I'm talking about the solution to the problems of multiculturalism, to which immigration is a part, but considerations of the "natives" and the immigrants is key.

True.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


Look at what you wrote. "Foreigners" and race.

I, as a white New Zealander in New York, am a foreigner. The black people I work with who were born and raised here are not foreigners, but they are of a different race.

[Whaleboy]

Obviously they will have the freedom to make their own choices, but they should be expected to follow generally accepted customs.

No more so than anyone else in my opinion.

You don't think we can know the value of an individual wrt their prospects of success as an immigrant? Of course we can!

Not without some kind of standardised testing, and I contend that should not be a basis upon which they are accepted. I doubt we're going to convince each other on that one though so lets agree to disagree.

I, as a white New Zealander in New York, am a foreigner. The black people I work with who were born and raised here are not foreigners, but they are of a different race.

Therefore?