more cracks from europe.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
For the love of God people! Even France thought they had weapons.

Yep. But we never believe Iraq posed any imminent threat. The US rejected to give six more months to the inspectors based on the imminence of the threat

[Pekka]

And this is exactly why I don't believe in EU defense either. There are only few relations in this world that are true alliances. US and UK is one. Papers are papers. They can be written and they can be torn. Alliance must exist in the hearts of men and leaders needs to have balls of steel. It must be in the name of solidarity and you must stand next to your brother in either victory, or fall together in the same lines.

And for the rest that shows up.. just gotta be grateful for the things they do, even if they quit before you do. That's what I think and it applies in general in life in most situations.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Yep.

Thank you for backing me up.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Thank you for backing me up.

As you may have noticed in my posts, I share with you a quite cynical view of international relations. In this very thread, I challenge Poland's sincerity, despite my willingness to gloat as a leftie.

[Pekka]

And that is why you must put everyone in disgrace and embrace Finland. We keep our word as it is the only thing we have. Thus, we don't make alliances easily if at all. But we promise this, we defend ourselves against any aggression, domestic of foreign until the last man has fallen. We are great allies but then again it's not easy to gain.

btw, the opinion joining NATO is getting bigger than refusing.. still refusing side is bigger but opinions are getting more to no EU defense, yes NATO. I didn't want us to join NATO at one point because there's nothing we would benefit from it so why should we, but I think we should be in some military alliance, and EU is not it, so I guess NATO would be good instead.

[Japher]

I think the lesson to be learned here is that if you are in violation of UN treaties and the US gets attacked while a Texan is in office, you damn well better cooperate instead of pssy-footing the issues and assinating all your people...

[Pekka]

Japher, that's a good lesson though. And look the positive sides to it. There was a coalition against Saddam and WMD. So clearly something was common and still is. It's just that some of the countries are starting to go back home too early.

[Japher]

"It's just that some of the countries are starting to go back home too early."

I remember everyone yelling at the US' post-war stratagies, saying that they make promises and then leave the people to succumb to that which we attempt to free them from.

Then, shortly there after, I heard everyone critize the US for sitting around in Iraq for too long.

Now, I hear, US needs to get out of Iraq, we are leaving so should you.

Hypocracy at it's finest.

I think we'll make up our own mind, since no one is capable of doing so.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


We did not give democracy to South Korea. We gave them th Rhee dictatoship which slaughtered over 100,000 Koreans. The RoK only became a democracy in the 1990s. The same with most of our East Asian clients: Taiwan, Indonesia. The Philippeans became a democracy inspite of our support of their dicator, Marcos. We only stopped backing him when it became obvious in the last six hours of his raeign he couldn't maintain control. Only in Japan did we delver on democracy.

Our record in Asia is very poor. If Vietnam became a democracy, it would be inspite of us, not because of us.

Was this a serious post? Or did you just feel like spouting blatant propoganda?

With regard to Korea, and us "giving" them the Rhee dictatorship

http://www.korea.net/learnaboutkorea/history/contemporary.html

Pursuant to a United Nations resolution, general elections were held on May 10, 1948, in the southern half of the peninsula (North Korea refused UN supervised elections). A constituent national assembly was formed through the elections and the constitution was framed based on democratic principles. The National Assembly then elected Dr. Syngman Rhee as the first president of the republic. He formed the government and promulgated the birth of the Republic of Korea on August 15, 1948, after three years of U.S. military government.

Why do leftists always equate being allied to a country as as imposing a government upon them?

With regard to Taiwan, we were helping the legitimate Chinese government that was recognized internationally, even by the USSR, and against what was basically a monster State in the PRC which under Mao would be one of the bloodiest and repressive governemnts in history.

Indonesia was originally a pro-Soviet state. We did not impose the dictatorship upon them, rather the local military couped after many of its senior leaders were killed by Communist gunmen.

In the Phillipines, we gave them a democracy, and the Phillipines experienced a temporary dictatorship of someone who couped after being democraticaly elected.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Japher
"It's just that some of the countries are starting to go back home too early."

I remember everyone yelling at the US' post-war stratagies, saying that they make promises and then leave the people to succumb to that which we attempt to free them from.

Then, shortly there after, I heard everyone critize the US for sitting around in Iraq for too long.

Now, I hear, US needs to get out of Iraq, we are leaving so should you.

Hypocracy at it's finest.

I don't know. Individual lefties have different concerns. I personally was (and remain) against the war. However, once the wrong was done, it was needed to repair the mess. I never opposed occupation, and I couldn't envision the US leaving Iraq anytime soon, unless the authority gets tranferred to the UN (and the US assumes its fair share of the peackeeping after that anyway).

I suppose other individuals on the left held a consistent point of view as well. One can be consistent if one thought from the beginning the US should just leave the Iraqis alone.

[GePap]

Lets give this a go yet again:

The "experiment" of making Iraq into a democracy will be a decade project at least-probably longer, assuming it does not fall apart, and not even contemplating it becoming some "shinning beacon" but isntead, like many nations in Asia and Latin America, a democracy feeling it's way around and having missteps here or there.

NOw, how long does your average national government last? Any action based on shared political interests by a grouping of governments-specially actions that are not unquestionably crucial for national security or survival are bound to be messy, if not fall apart as that common political aggreement fades, either with time, or as governments change in each member. This is why making the action part of the international legal framework is crucial-it removes important decisions form transiatory political groups- it removes a large part of the urge to make decisions based on desired political gains nationally-it makes it so costs can be shared, and burdens moved as each member state sees changes to how much they can, or care to contribute.

For this simple reason this mission needs to be given to the UN- as I said before-if it is so damned important, it can't be run based on the today political needs of the members-that is a recipe for danger.

[Pekka]

Japher, selective hearing at its best.

I have heard no one saying you're sitting there for too long. I heard no one saying you should get out of there.

Like you said you make up your own mind, so does Poland.

Notice, I'm criticizing Poland here, not the US. But I guess they made up their mind.

[GePap]

at Shi and his statements about RoK as a democracy!

Guess he is too young to remember the 1988 Summer Olympics in S.Korea.

[Japher]

Japher, selective hearing at its best.

I have heard no one saying you're sitting there for too long. I heard no one saying you should get out of there.

We suffer the same maladay...

I won't critize Poland unless the turn the tables as it appears Spain wants to do. I am done critizing Germany and France on the matter because the stuck to their guns.

The last thing we need, as a world community, is wishy-washy stances on issues that affect us all.

Do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that is what it feels like to be America... in regards to the desires of other nations. No wonder our foreign policy is so F'd up. We put it in place at the request of others, only to have it second guessed after it's done. While the blame is ours it is not for acting (more like reacting).

[Pekka]

Japher, yeah but I wouldn't blame Spain either. They have different people in power now, and I wouldn't go blaming the people they can do what they want so.. and they never backed the war 100%, the people I mean..

But yeah I think some determined thinking here would have been nice. But that's the ultimate price for being the only superpower though.. everyone has an opinion about things and they're alwyas wrong and right the same time depending who you ask from.

But that's the way it goes. Boss takes the hits. You know it's like that, it sucks but that's the way it is. It would be nice for the team to share the blows though. And I don't agree with the countries pulling back now, don't get me wrong there, I'm just saying I understand and they have their own reasons. Poland has its own reasons we might not understand, and I think we should just respect it, they showed up and shared the work load a bit and it was good until it lasted you know..