more cracks from europe.

[Whaleboy]

sorry its from chinese girl I know=[. buy me scanner, send scanner here. I give u address?

No dice

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


As opposed to hegemonic, imperialistic, with a dangerously entrenched institutionalised view of its own global benevolence?

I'd trust the UN anyway. Why does your character assassination of the UN mean that it cannot run Iraq, especially considering that yours is a view even the American govt aren't to loud about?



So your view as to how they should feel is more valid than their view as to how they [b]do[/do] feel? . [Anne Robinson]. Your's is not an objective/independent basis upon which to form a view, you have the demerit of "opposing uninvolvement".

they are riled up in many of the ways u hate. nationalism, xenophobia. and ur attack is very backhanded, since u don't provide a view on the vietnamese ppl u merely presuppose they disagree w/ me then say that my view isnt valid.

when in fact while vietnamese certainly do not like americans, THEY DO LIKE things americans have. this includes washers, dryers, freedom of the press, not going to jail for speaking out against the gov't.

which is of course my whole original point. that if they had been wiser 40 years ago they would have fought for us and not against us and thusly ended up more like south korea and less like the ****hole they presently occupy. as it is they were not and now they have to try and gain their freedoms all over again.

[GePap]

As for the accusation of massive UN corruption and ineptness:

Which organization beat polio and smallpox aorund the world? The US? NATO? NO, WHO, and arm of the UN. When elections need to be set up, do we call the US government? NO. The UN.

The UN has levels-corruption can be shown at the secreteriat-though of course as far as I can think the oil-for food program was unique to the UN-an unprecendented chance for corruption-but in terms of having engineers in the ground doing rebuiolding-people on the ground rebuilding the Iraqi health care system, in setting up the mahcinery of free elections the fact is the UN is far and away better trained and equiped than the people we have there now, and that we might get without the UN-and it will be those people who will do the most to make Iraq work.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
I've read articles recently where they'd also like some freedoms back.

In order to have something back, you have to have had it in the first place. Vietnam was always a dictatorship. Nor is there any reason to believe that it would be a free country today had the U.S. won the war. Look at nearby Thailand and Burma. Both pro-Western capitalist, but nasty little authoritarian states (kingdom, dictarship, whatever).

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


No dice

are u implying I care? I hope not.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
when in fact while vietnamese certainly do not like americans,

Actually, they do seem to like us. It's our government they don't like.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


In order to have something back, you have to have had it in the first place. Vietnam was always a dictatorship. Nor is there any reason to believe that it would be a free country today had the U.S. won the war. Look at nearby Thailand and Burma. Both pro-Western capitalist, but nasty little authoritarian states (kingdom, dictarship, whatever).

yes yes ok. they want what other ppl have. thailand is actually growing. still pretty crappy, but got some upside. certainly being pro US merely means u support the US. I am infact talking about having a democracy and having rights etc and so forth. which vietnam would have very likely had seeing as it would have been promised to stop communism by setting up democracies. and seeing as we gave democracy to both japan and south korea, there was both precident and intent.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Actually, they do seem to like us. It's our government they don't like.

poll?

[Az]

You got me by the balls on that one!

Nonetheless, it is my view that especially since they are under the eyes of international scrutiny, it is an organisation populated by somewhat different individuals, and facing the threat from the US (thus need to do a good job) that the UN could do a better job at nation building now. Certainly far better than the USA. *Whaleboy looks in the direction of Afghanistan*.

Don't get me wrong, the UN is a pretty screwed up organisation. It's inefficient, slow, and plagued by some of the same problems the League of Nations faced. Nonetheless, when building a nation that isn't merely a satellite state (and unlike the UN, the same people are in charge pretty much in the USA that saw disasterous policies like that, for example, Iraq and Afghanistan in the 80's), a single nation that has proved itself untrustworthy in this regard (and I am more suspicious because of the blatent zeal of the US to go to war) is going to do a worse job than the UN. It's own fatal subjectivity is cause enough for that.

Afghanistan isn't a fair comparison. It has NOTHING. absolutely NOTHING. It will certainly take a LOT of time to build it. I actually think that the US' grade on Afghanistan is fair.


I wouldn't trust the US to be the world's policeman. It is terribly biased, no doubt. But it seems to be willing to do good in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. I say we should let it. The Americans want the Iraqi oil? The Iraqis wouldn't care who'll build it, and who will they get the dividents from. (And saying that a UN administration won't give away nice condition is at best wishful thinking. Would YOU place an investment in current Iraq, unless you had some nice conditions?)

Halliburton eating up the cash? that's cash from the US treasury, that wouldn't have been there without the US, anyway. Let the american voter sort it out.

So once again. World's policeman? no way. But for THIS PARTICULAR CAUSE, and since it's not like we have someone better for the job, anyway, I say, it's ok.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
poll?

Anecdotal evidence based on every documentary about people going to or returning to Vietnam I've seen.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Anecdotal evidence based on every documentary about people going to or returning to Vietnam I've seen.

so vietnamese like rich americans who visit them and buy their shirts?

sounds great.

[Whaleboy]

which is of course my whole original point. that if they had been wiser 40 years ago they would have fought for us and not against us and thusly ended up more like south korea and less like the ****hole they presently occupy. as it is they were not and now they have to try and gain their freedoms all over again.

You have no answered my point that your view has not got necessarily more validity than another, where they are based on different sets of premises and we are dealing with a set of premises that differ from your own. Basic logic.

And yes you should care. Everyone cares about the lovely Whaleboy darling...

[GePap]

Originally posted by yavoon


poll?

Ask DanS-he metioned this.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


You have no answered my point that your view has not got necessarily more validity than another, where they are based on different sets of premises and we are dealing with a set of premises that differ from your own. Basic logic.

And yes you should care. Everyone cares about the lovely Whaleboy darling...

I'm not going to let u drag me into relativism. sorry go take ur "no point is valid" troll elsewhere.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
seeing as we gave democracy to both japan and south korea, there was both precident and intent.

We did not give democracy to South Korea. We gave them th Rhee dictatoship which slaughtered over 100,000 Koreans. The RoK only became a democracy in the 1990s. The same with most of our East Asian clients: Taiwan, Indonesia. The Philippeans became a democracy inspite of our support of their dicator, Marcos. We only stopped backing him when it became obvious in the last six hours of his raeign he couldn't maintain control. Only in Japan did we delver on democracy.

Our record in Asia is very poor. If Vietnam became a democracy, it would be inspite of us, not because of us.