Terrorists claim victory in Spain

[GePap]

Read closely, I refered to the voters who switchedtheir support to the socialists, not to those who were socialists to begin with.

No difference. 80%-90% of Spaniards opposed the Iraq war-assuming the 10-20% that always backed it stayed with the PP, that means that the vast mayority if not entirety of those that might have switched their support from the PP to PSEO (and given that turnout was far higher than expected, the PSOE could have simply been carried to victory by people who had not been likely voters when the polls were taken) must have bene opponents of the war.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

As far as I can tell, the Spanish voted PSOE was because the PP government lied about the attack in Madrid.

Why don't you read the Washington Post article I linked to (and then copied and pasted)?

Kagan did not address the issue of why the vote went the way it did. He just made certain assumptions without even trying to substantiate them.

[Drake Tungsten]

Kagan did not address the issue of why the vote went the way it did.

I linked to more than one article, genius. The one in question was the very first one...

I see drake has yet to address any of the points I made: see what happens when you waste your time posting long posts DT?

Sorry. I was just letting you drone on, as usual. I'll chime in if I notice a point worth dealing with in the deluge.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by dannubis


yes, but in this case negotiation led to the fact that no bombs fell ...

Yes, but that needs rational actors on both sides. MAD caused both sides to act rationally, since otherwise they would not have survived. However, those fundies (not all muslims fortunately, but these fundies are our problem now) act rational only within their ideology - when the belief is that our lifestyle is decadent, and that infidels deserve death, then it is within their logic to kill us. And surviving does not seem their main concern, also because of their ideology. As long as they don't change that, there is no room for negotiations, because we would need to sacrifice our beliefs, eg. our basic understanding of a modern society, to please them.

and with negotiation i ment negotiating in a broad way...
supplying means for education
giving people a chance to a better life
rooting out situations which are actually degrading

Certainly nothing wrong with that from my POV. It will however not change the mindset of fundies that are already there, and there is still a chance that a certain number of muslims sees what we call education and better life only as means of western Imperialism.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Kagan did not address the issue of why the vote went the way it did.

I linked to more than one article, genius. The one in question was the very first one...

Your own words:

Why don't you read the Washington Post article I linked to (and then copied and pasted)?

You implied Kagan addressed the issue in the article you copied and pasted.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
I will look for good examples. In the meantime, I can give you an example were appeasement would have worked-Iraq.

I don't thin either of these cases fall under the standard definition of appeasement as far as I can tell. In the first case, Iraq was the agressor and Bush I was simply demanding they leave the lands they conquered. In the second case, Iraq could have avoided the war by living up to the commitments they made after having thier arse kicked 6 ways from Sunday the first time. I don't really have any idea how that one qualifies as appeasement.

I'll have to look at the example of Muscovy though. Russian history isn't my strong suit.

[chequita guevara]

Why doesn't anyone believe the Spanish voters? The ones who voted PSOE say they switched because the government lied. The ones who wanted the PP to win say that Spain has surrended. Sour grapes and and the conservaties in the US like suckin' on 'em.

[Drake Tungsten]

You implied Kagan addressed the issue in the article you copied and pasted.

*sigh*

I know your English isn't that great, so I'll be nice...

I copied and pasted three pieces from the Washington Post. One is an "opinion column" by Robert Kagan. They call Kagan an "opinion columnist" because he writes "columns", not "articles". If I had wanted you to read Kagan's column, I would've told you to read a column, not an article.

I also wouldn't have told you to read an "editorial", which is what the second Washington Post piece I linked to was, because "editorials" and "articles" aren't the same thing.

Now, considering that only one of the three pieces I copied and pasted was an article, wouldn't it make sense that you read the sole article when I ask you to read the "article"? I don't know, but it certainly makes more sense than claiming that I implied you read Kagan's column instead in a pathetic attempt to avoid the issue at hand...

Thank you.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can you point out a situation where where such a strategy actually worked?

Appeasing the US is generally safer than confronting it.

[Arrian]

Appeasement tends to make more sense when you're weak. A weak nation (let's say Muscovy) can appease a powerful one (the Mongols) until such time as the balance of power shifts.

Appeasement doesn't make much sense when your opponent is comparable to you, or weaker than you.

-Arrian

[chequita guevara]

The Kagan piece was tripe.

[DinoDoc]

That doesn't really answer the question, che. BC and GePap made a better effort than that.

[chequita guevara]

I head an interesting thing on PBS last night. The only reason the PP government admitted that they were looking at AQ on Saturday was because the PSOE found out about the evidence linking AQ and informed the government if they didn't tell the truth, the PSOE would. The PP lied, and tried to continue lying and cover up its lies. Right before an election.

Getting caught lying about a major catastrophe the day before an election is generally not condusive to victory in the polls. Had the Spanish not thrown them out, they would have been condoning ineptness and lying by the government. That is the greater crime.

It is sad the PP weren't punished even more greatly.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
That doesn't really answer the question, che. BC and GePap made a better effort than that.

Mr one-liner cannot complain about one-liner responses.

[DinoDoc]

I think we can all agree that it would have been better for all concerned if the government had not said anything of substance about who did it the first day.