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Woman charged with murder for refusing C-section

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    Jan. 24, 2004

    The Utah Supreme Court has upheld a state law that allows defendants charged with murdering a pregnant women also to be prosecuted for the death of a fetus at any stage of its development.
    Friday's ruling puts Utah's fetal homicide law -- which has an exception for legal abortion -- on firm footing with similar statutes in at least 13 other states. About a dozen other states criminalize fetal homicide, but at various developmental stages later than conception.
    Roger MacGuire, 50, now faces trial on two counts of capital murder for the 2001 slaying of his 38-year-old ex-wife. Susan MacGuire was 13 to 15 weeks pregnant when MacGuire allegedly fired two shots into her abdomen after ambushing her at the Layton insurance office where she worked.
    Prosecutors say MacGuire snapped when he learned Susan MacGuire was pregnant by her new boyfriend and had plans to marry him.
    Assistant Utah Attorney General Christopher Ballard, who represented the state in the appeal, said Friday's opinion in favor of the law upholds "the will of the people."
    "In Utah, we believe that it's a crime to kill an unborn child unless you're the mother of that child, with a constitutional right to make that choice," he said. "But no one else has the right to make that choice for the mother, and that is what this ruling affirms."
    MacGuire's appellate attorney, Scott Wiggins, could not be reached Friday. But Wiggins had argued the justices should declare the law unconstitutionally vague because it did not specify at what stage of development a fetus becomes an "unborn child," which is the only defining language for gestation in the statute.
    Responding to MacGuire's appeal in 2002, lawmakers added the phrase "at any stage of development" to make clear that it applies from conception. But that change did not apply to MacGuire, and on Friday the justices ruled the law was clear even before the amendment.
    "We conclude that the term 'unborn child' is not unconstitutionally vague because, absent modifying language to the contrary, it clearly encompasses a human being at any stage of development in utero," wrote Associate Chief Justice Matthew B. Durrant for the court Friday.
    The high court went on to say because the term has a "straightforward definition," prosecutors are not left to speculate as to the statute's meaning.
    Chief Justice Christine M. Durham agreed with the majority on the law's constitutionality. But she authored a dissent, pointing to another section in state code that makes it a capital offense to murder "two or more persons."
    Durham argued that because a fetus, under Utah law, is not "a full legal 'person' " MacGuire should not be subject to the death penalty.
    Justice Jill N. Parrish wrote a response to Durham, saying the term "person" must be read in context with the fetal homicide statute, which only refers to "unborn children."
    Davis County Attorney Mel Wilson said prosecutors will proceed with MacGuire's case as soon as possible. MacGuire is being held in the Davis County Jail without bail.
    "We felt like we were on solid ground in the first place and that we would prevail on the appeal, but it is a controversial issue and one that [is] being debated across the county," Wilson said Friday.
    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act introduced last year in Congress is akin to Utah's statute. But, unlike in Utah, the federal bill does not provide for the prosecution of a woman for actions (other than abortion) while pregnant, such as drug use, that harms or kills her fetus.
    Utah's fetal homicide law was first used in 1997 to charge Dayna Pittman with child abuse homicide for killing her unborn child through the use of methamphetamine. Pittman pleaded guilty to the charge. Since then, the statute has also been used against two women charged with child abuse for harming their unborn children with drugs.
    Ballard said he does not think Friday's opinion could be considered a victory for either pro- or anti-abortion camps.
    "I don't know that the opinion supports either side to the extent they would want it to," he said. "I think that regardless of your stance on abortion, either side of the abortion debate could use this opinion to further their case."
    Still, Karrie Galloway, executive director of Planned Parenthood of Utah, said she can't help but question the intent of fetal homicide laws like Utah's.
    "I just wonder if we're really addressing the justice system here, or if we are being political for those who are intent on reversing Roe. v. Wade," she said. "At least if you're looking at viability, that's one thing, but if we're going to infer personhood at any point of a pregnancy, we are really pushing the envelope."
    Former state Sen. Steve Poulton, who sponsored the 2002 amendment, said he was pleased with Friday's opinion which he says should make people re-evaluate their own beliefs about abortion laws.
    "I'm glad that the Supreme Court made the right call," he said. "I think people ought to realize the hypocrisy of saying let's prosecute someone for murder when they kill a fetus in a violent act to the mother, but it's OK to kill a fetus in a nonviolent act."

    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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    • And this:

      Utah fetal homicide statute is upheld

      By Angie Welling
      Deseret Morning News

      In a landmark decision Friday, the Utah Supreme Court ruled that unborn children at all stages of development are covered under the state's criminal homicide statute.
      The divided court rejected arguments that the law is unconstitutionally vague, ruling it "clearly encompasses a human being at any stage of development in utero."
      Legal analysts do not believe the decision will have any impact on Utah abortion laws, as the homicide statute specifically exempts the death of an unborn child caused by an abortion.

      http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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      • Originally posted by Ned
        Templar, I think you are addressing something different than the specific statute involved in this case. See my post on the previous page.
        I am aware of the statute, I'm talking about the overall attitude. The statute is just another in a long line of excuses to pack rights into fetuses. The thing is, the concern here really isn't about fetuses. Rights for fetuses is just a Trojan horse. The real agenda is continued male domination of women's bodies. The statute in this case is really just such a Trojan horse.

        As George Carlin put it, you tell this from the behavior of the wingnuts who try to give rights to fetuses. I.e. actual dedication to fetuses on the part of a wingnut is directly proportional to the number of crack babies they have adopted.

        But seriously, show me some evidence that the wingnuts and religious fanatics really care about anything other than preserving the patriarchy. Anything.
        - "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
        - I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
        - "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming

        Comment


        • [QUOTE] Originally posted by Ned
          And this:

          Utah fetal homicide statute is upheld

          By Angie Welling
          Deseret Morning News

          In a landmark decision Friday, the Utah Supreme Court ruled that unborn children at all stages of development are covered under the state's criminal homicide statute.
          Utah Supreme Court? This would be news only if they struck the law down.

          The divided court rejected arguments that the law is unconstitutionally vague, ruling it "clearly encompasses a human being at any stage of development in utero."
          I guess what I want to know is when the court thinks the organism in a womb becomes a human being? Blastocyst? Zygote? When?

          Legal analysts do not believe the decision will have any impact on Utah abortion laws, as the homicide statute specifically exempts the death of an unborn child caused by an abortion.
          OK, so the patriarchs are smart enough to erode women's rights slowly and gradually. Even the language of the statute making abortion an exception implies that it is wrong.
          - "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
          - I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
          - "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Mad Monk
            Drugs were involved.
            Anyway, it seems that a child endangerment charge can be sustained even without refering to the surgery.
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

            Comment


            • If a late term abortion is permitted only to protect the life or health of the mother, I say arrest everyone involved in a late term abortion and let them prove their case. As we all know, this "health" exception is a sham.
              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ming
                While I personally think the lady should be punished... the story says...


                In the first paragraph... the doctor warned that the twins "probably" would die. Medicine isn't an exact science. The twins could have survived, and one did indeed survive.
                There is also always a risk with surgery... So we are talking about percentages here. Granted, one could argue that the percentages say that she should have had the surgery... but it seems by the second paragraph that she is being charged because of comments made to a nurse.

                Do I disagree with her choice... YES... But should people be forced to have surgery they don't want... NO!

                If she had stated that she was afraid of having the surgery, and didn't want to take that risk... this probably wouldn't even be an issue.
                Surgery no matter how minor or routine the operation can lead to death or you being than human vegetable(worst than Death). I have than bad liver from than illness which make any operation very riskly more people
                die from the gas or drugs they use to put you under so that you donot feel then cutting you open. In man history in surgery the doctor in the ancient world where limited in what they could do due to than thing called body shock when they cut open the body of than person not put under that person die in 10 to 15 minutes later due to shock to the body.The normal risk of something goeing wrong with putting you under is 3 % with than bad liver 30% other medical problen like diable(cannot control blood sugar level) can make it worst.
                By the year 2100 AD over half of the world population will be follower of Islam.

                Comment


                • 3% of the people put under so they can operate on then die from the gas or drug they use this is the normal people with no major health rick like bad liver. With than bad liver the change of dieing is 30 % or more when other factor are takeing in. So if I was than woman I can refuse the C-section on valid ground as it might endanger my life.
                  By the year 2100 AD over half of the world population will be follower of Islam.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Agathon


                    This is a special case. In this case your decision has massive implications for the lives of others, others who you are responsible for bringing into being.

                    For example, if you gave your friend some home brew and it wrecked his kidneys and he needed to be hooked up to another person for dialysis, then the state would be fully justified in compelling you to be that other person.

                    People who think we have absolute rights are dreamers and don't understand how rights really work.
                    w00t! commie-on-commie action!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                      If a woman has a right to control her own body, then she has the right, for any reason, to elect not to undergo surgery.
                      But she doesn't have the right to control her own body, so it's a moot point

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by David Floyd
                        What? That's outrageous! If you intentionally poisoned him, you should be charged with that crime. But it is unreasonable to force people to use their bodies to help another person. That's slavery. I can easily imagine an 8th Amendment argument, as well.
                        Amendment XIII

                        Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

                        Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

                        Comment


                        • One doesn't have an absolute right to one's own body. I thought this was a known fact. Otherwise, any kind of prohibiton is "immoral"
                          urgh.NSFW

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                            However, she, carrying the children to full term, definetly assumed a duty to them. It's like the first person who responds to an accident. They then have a duty to take reasonable care to try to save the person's life (ie, they can't simply drive away). If she didn't want an abortion, the case can be made that she was duty-bound to take reasonable measures to make sure both lived.
                            I agree with that. I can't see "reasonable measures" include medical operations, however.
                            (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                            (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                            (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Mad Monk
                              In other news, she's saying that her two other children were both c-sectioned.
                              IIRC, a woman could only have 2 c-sections without significant risks to herself. If this is true, the persecution shouldn't have a leg to stand on.
                              (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                              (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                              (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by monkspider
                                This woman denied one of her babies the chance to accept Jesus Christ as it's personal savior and as a result,her innocent child is now being tortured in the lowest bowels of hell by a legion of demons.

                                I say string her up!!
                                Obviously you're not a Christian because if you were then you would know that if a child dies before it reaches the age of accountability then it isn't held responsible for it's sins. A child who hasn't even had the chance to breath life hasn't had the chance to sin so it wouldn't burn in hell but move on to heaven.
                                Welcome to earth, my name is Tia and I'll be your tour guide for this trip.
                                Succulent and Bejeweled Mother Goddess, who is always moisturised yet never greasy, always patient yet never suffers fools~Starchild
                                Dragons? Yup- big flying lizards with an attitude. ~ Laz
                                You are forgiven because you are FABULOUS ~ Imran

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