Heavy terr act in Madrid

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Not quite, doofus. It's in fact illogical to accuse someone without any proof.

Hey! then stop accusing Al-Qaeda!

No one has accused ETA. Still they are the candidates number one and the more than probable responsible. If I had to bet my money I would say it was ETA, total or partially responsible.

Anyway, when you don´t have probes. And even if you have, is good to use logic. Logic says that it would be so convenient 3 days before the elections that the guilty were Al-Qaeda and not ETA. And logic says that the groups against government are ready to bash the governing party like they have been doing all this year. They don´t mind using death people to achieve their goals.

[Fake Boris]

Yes, and logics tell you that the person who will benefit the most from this is the PP. Did the PP do this?

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Terrorism is a sad thing, but sometimes people are just looking for it. National autonomous movements are valid causes IMO, and those who don't want to recognize them are exposing themselves to risks.

Very democratic way of thinking. Next time I want something that the majority of people don´t want, I will put a pair of bombs.

This said, it seems like 'negociating' with terrorists can be successful, as demonstrated by the massive opposition to the terror act in Basque territory.

False. Look at the statistics. They have the most autonomy in history. They are not happy. Look at the news for it.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
4. Van found with detonators and Arabic Koran tape.

Sorry, but this doesn´t demonstrates anything. They could have been placed by ETA people just to disguise it. They could knew that there are a lot of people willing to blame Bush and Aznar (sorry, I mean Al Qaeda) for the dead people. That´s the perfect strike. People day and government loses elections.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
For example, we might say of a little 11-years old girl with very sexy clothes (perhaps too sexy for her age) walking alone at 1 AM in the street of a poor ghetto that she has a rape coming.

:-O So the people who invented that burka idea were in fact worried about women´s security.

That doesn't make raping her morally acceptable.

But justifies laws forbidding women to dress like the want to dress. Isn´t it? In democracy people can dress as they want to, as long as it isn´t offensive. That´s the basis of democracy, giving freedom to people to act and fo what they want as long as they follow minimum rules of respect to the other citizens.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Now, say that X and Y start a brawl in a bar. X is at -50, and so is Y. Does that mean that both can substract the other's morality rating to theirs, so that they are in fact at 0? Nope. They are both a -50.

Now, say the terrorists are at -100, and the innocent people at -2. Am I implying that in fact the terrorists should be considered at -98? Not at all.

The problem is that in praxis similar thinking is indeed used to justify acts of terror. After sep.11 there were AQ letters published in Arab media which said pretty much "its their own fault". That is a standard argument in terrorist reasoning, much older than AQ terror, because as a terrorist you must convince yourself somehow that you're right in killing your victims. If you can't do that, your own legitimation falls down.

So, I don't doubt it when you say you will not excuse or justify anything, still I can't oversee that others do so with similar reasoning.

[GePap]

Hey OB- better quit it while you are far far behind....

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Timexwatch
The politics of ETA depends on what you read. They may have been leftist at one time, but nowadays, at least from the academic analysis that I´ve been reading, they´ve skewed more towards a rightist slant with ethnic undertones to their claims.

ETA is leftist nationalism. They are Castro´s friends. PNV is rightist nationalism. In any case, political ideas (right or left) are in second place, and the important thing for them are obtaining the independence (and their little piece of power, their seat at UN, etc, etc) at any means.

Spanish nationalism, since the La Pepa constitution, has been liberal, but Catalan nationalism and, IIRC, Basque nationalism has been conservative.

Nowadays Catalan nationalism is more leftist (ERC) than anything. I´m not aware of any rightist Catalan Nationalists.

CiU, the party in power of the Catalan government for 23 years (until past Autumn) is conservative.

The number of Herri Batasuana seats in the Cortes reached a high of 8 (in the mid-80s and over 60% of the Pais Vasco and Navarre seats) but has dropped to nothing.

They didn´t participate in the elections of 4 years ago. That´s the reason.

Right now, at least from unbiased interpretations of Euskal Barometer, 20% of Pais Vasco residents are hardcore ETA/Independence supporters. There is a vocal minority that terrorizes the majority, including the Castillian speaking people who live there. There is daily low intensity violence from polarized youth that stalls any political resolution.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by GePap
Hey OB- better quit it while you are far far behind....

I dare you to explain how someone's else wrong overcomes yours.

EDIT: AND NO, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR CASE OF MADRID BOMBING.

[chequita guevara]

A lot of what I'vr read about the ETA says that they've drifted far from the left over the decades.

[DinoDoc]

Of course you are. I'm suprised you don't like how your victims of terrorism have it coming theorem is being applied.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by OliverFA
Very democratic way of thinking. Next time I want something that the majority of people don´t want, I will put a pair of bombs.

Read my posts silly. The terror emerged at a time the Basques didn't have autonomy. The maxim would not be what you wrote, but rather 'next time someone oppresses my right, I will resort to violence'.

False. Look at the statistics. They have the most autonomy in history. They are not happy. Look at the news for it.

Yes, and if back in the 70s Madrid had said 'we won't negociate', what would their autonomy be like now? ETA is weaker mostly because it doesn't have popular support anymore, not because its members have been killed. Look Israeli raids won't ever do anything against terrorism. It will cease when they lose popular support.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Of course you are. I'm suprised you don't like how your victims of terrorism have it coming theorem is being applied.

That is because you lack basic understanding skills. I did explain that the relationship was not moral.

If we followed your logic, gravity would be responsible for the death of someone who throws himself out of window.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by BeBro
The problem is that in praxis similar thinking is indeed used to justify acts of terror. After sep.11 there were AQ letters published in Arab media which said pretty much "its their own fault". That is a standard argument in terrorist reasoning, much older than AQ terror, because as a terrorist you must convince yourself somehow that you're right in killing your victims. If you can't do that, your own legitimation falls down.

So, I don't doubt it when you say you will not excuse or justify anything, still I can't oversee that others do so with similar reasoning.

If others use fallacious reasoning, that is not my problem.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
That is because you lack basic understanding skills.

Then why all the histrionics about how you don't want people to apply your theorem to this particular case.

If we followed your logic, gravity would be responsible for the death of someone who throws himself out of window.

If we followed my logic the person who kills people would be responsible for his actions not his victim.