Heavy terr act in Madrid

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Then why all the histrionics about how you don't want people to apply your theorem to this particular case.

Someone sets a a deadly trap on the street, puts huge warning signs around it with sirens, and start a TV campaign to warn people about it.

Someone walks on it and die, even though he perfectly knew what the consequences would be. Who is responsible for the death?

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Then why all the histrionics about how you don't want people to apply your theorem to this particular case.

There is NO causality in this case, because they did nothing for it. The Madrilenes DIDN'T have it coming. I merely said that in some cases the victim has it.

Now, that is another debate- but 9/11 was the case.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Now, that is another debate- but 9/11 was the case.

This should be interesting. Explain how the people working in the World Trade Center or on those planes had it coming.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This should be interesting. Explain how the people working in the World Trade Center or on those planes had it coming.

They where capitalists.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This should be interesting. Explain how the people working in the World Trade Center or on those planes had it coming.

I will answer this, but only if you take the time to answer my other previous question.

OK.

International realpolitik usually takes a 'whole country' for responsible of something- or, at least, it has to suppose that the effects on the innocent are meaningless.

If you look at what the American sanctions did to Iraq, or the humanitarian disaster in Afghanistan, or the effects of the Sudan bombing on thousands of children, you have a perfect example of this. The difference being, of course, that the Afghani peasants had no influence on Bin Laden, and that Iraqi children had nothing to do with the Gulf War, while the American people in general supported many of the terrorist acts of its government, and even voted for it.

In some cases, the link between terrorists and American action is direct (the mudjahidins). In most cases, it is indirect- terrorism springs from the political climate which has in part been created by American action.

If a moral action with a mostly negative value (supporting Bush) will knowingly result in another action with also a negative value (terrorism), then those who commited the first action are partly responsible, not only from a causal viewpoint, but also from a moral one.

From there, the 'had it coming' is mainly statistical: most people in the WTC were morally contributing to a climate favorable to terrorism: voting for terrorist parties, buying slave-labor stuff, etc. There will always be some innocents: but since America ignored them in their quest to hurt Saddam or the Taliban, you can't sincerely expect Al-Qaeda not to ignore them in their quest to hurt America.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by General Ludd


They where capitalists.

I am a capitalist too.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
I will answer this, but only if you take the time to answer my other previous question.

No. It was a stupid question.

[chequita guevara]

In a democracy, people get the government they deserve. People are repsonsible for the actions of their government either directly, but voting it in, or indirectly, allowing it to do bad things. If the Spanish peoples really opposed the war, they should have had a general strike to bring down the government.

That's the thinking anyway. I don't buy it.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


I am a capitalist too.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


I am a capitalist too.

You have it coming too then.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by General Ludd

Do you buy things? If you buy anything, you're capitalist.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


I will answer this, but only if you take the time to answer my other previous question.

OK.

International realpolitik usually takes a 'whole country' for responsible of something- or, at least, it has to suppose that the effects on the innocent are meaningless.

If you look at what the American sanctions did to Iraq,

the sanctions that specifically excluded food and medicine? That allowed oil to be sold to get money for food, funds that were diverted by the Iraqi regime to palaces and weaponry?

an attack on afghanistan in which a greater attempt was made to avoid collateral damage than in most priot wars?

An attack on a pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan that was genuinely believed to be plant where chemical weapons were being produced.

Lets review - international law makes it a crime to INTENTIONALLY kill civilians.

The US did not intentionally kill civilians in any of the incidents you mention, and so this would not be a valid reason for attacking the US. Period. Al fortiori it would not be a reason for attacking civilians.

Thanks for exposing yourself for what you really are.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Do you buy things? If you buy anything, you're capitalist.

WRONG! You are a capitalist if, and only if, you own productive capital. Most of us in the captialist world are proles.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In a democracy, people get the government they deserve. People are repsonsible for the actions of their government either directly, but voting it in, or indirectly, allowing it to do bad things. If the Spanish peoples really opposed the war, they should have had a general strike to bring down the government.

That's the thinking anyway. I don't buy it.

Glad you dont che. The basic impetus behind the argument is to legitimize terrorist acts against citizens of democracies, in a way that allows one to continue to attack unintentional civilian deaths caused by democracies.

[Ned]

How would the people of Spain feel today about a huge anti-Bush, anti-Israel demonstration by green-flag festooned radical Muslims bearing pictures of Osama bin Laden and Yasser Arafat?