So how come black people call each other ******?

[Verto]

Well, I would agree that, to an extent, some blacks are responsible for inciting prejudice/racism by trying to act like 'thugs' or 'gangstas'. Don't get me wrong, but nothing but trouble will come when a bunch of people start praising the Black Panthers and acting like they'll "bust yo cap". It only causes further division.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
For the record, I personally do not hate any particular person because they are white. I do feel distrust of whites in groups of 2 or more due to my own personal experiences.

Oh good, a chance to get back on track.

I think your response is pretty typical- for the most part blacks don't hate whites, but they get pretty frustrated by some things that white 'in general' do or say- such as viewpoints expressed in this thread.

One of my friends (bunnygrrl's best friend) told me about a time were at the age of 5 she was chased down the street by a group of kids, for no other reason than she was black. We whites don't have these experiences (usually), and if we do we can fall back on knowing that we are the ones "accepted" by society anyway- we normally don't connect it with race.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by dainbramage20
Blacks arent respected in this society cause most are poorly educated at english and are driven like zombies to Consumerist-Media-Trends. Not to mention there taste in music is appauling. It wouldnt be so bad if it werent so demeaning to women.

My god, go to your local dance club and look at a 'thug' wrong. You might aswell have thrown him a middle.
He and his boys are all over you. I guess there are punks of every race under the age of 25. The problem is EVERY african american male under 25 thinks he's a punk.

Regarding the slave trade. What Nonsense. We brought them over unwillingly. Thats all that matters. We had moral Objections based on Christianity but it was powerful land-owners who brought them in and used them not everyday middle class people. I think we can all unite and agree on Blaming the Rich white people of the time.

Actually slavery in the south happened primarily because of the introduction of rice cultivation (to S.C., IIRC)... it was a man-power intensive agriculture. Their employment in cotton and other plantations happened after this seminal event.

So, blame rice.

[Theben]

jeez, you guys are actually responding to a trolling DL?

EDIT: Forgot the obligatory

[David Floyd]

Theben,

Plenty of blacks immigrate to america now. They could've come over of their own free will at a later date.

Assuming they had the money to pay for a trip and had the desire to leave their home behind. This situation may have produced "higher quality" immigrants, yet that isn't my argument. My argument is that slavery created a situation that has led to millions of people living in America, when otherwise they probably would not have.

Is there ever a point where hatred is justified?

No, and I have hardly argued otherwise.

Except that a lot of them don't have opportunities, and we'll never know what could have been if colonialism/slavery hadn't occurred

Yes, there are a lot of blacks in America without significant opportunities today, yet even so, they aren't starving to death or being conscripted into local militias, as they very well might be if they were in Africa.

Africa is actually quite wealthy in resources.

Sure, I'm quite aware of that. But resources in the ground don't mean a damn thing unless the technology and will exists to both get at and exploit those resources.

And again, immigration would allow for those people with talent to seek their fortunes in a 1st world nation.

Absolutely, although I don't see why there wouldn't be immigration limits

In any case, though, this would mean that a lot of people who live in America today would not, and likely would never end up living here. I'd call that quite negative, in comparison.

Degrees, my young friend. Both Brazil and Afganistan are 3rd world. Do you equate the two?

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to live in either country

And if you are arguing that a lack of slavery would mean that some African nations might have improved to the level of Brazil, then you haven't really countered my original point that blacks are/would be better off in America than in Africa, even a Brazil-like Africa.

You proved my point b/c the corruption currently rampaging thru Africa is a direct result of post-colonial policies designed to maintain the status quo via disruption of tribal boundaries with newer defined boundaries of the state, and installment of dictatorships loyal to the former colonial power.

I agree, yet prior to colonization tribal warfare and dictatorships were still rampant, and I very much suspect that corruption would still be a problem today.

Pax,

What positive thing did Colonization/imperialism bring to africa?

Simple - technology and trade. If the Europeans hadn't colonized Africa, it's a pretty solid bet that the technology and infrastructure of EVERY African country would be behind where it is now.

You are right when you say that Africa was behind technologically. No argument. This lack of technology led to their enslavement and colonization. Europeans have dominated the world through learning others tech and their own inventiveness. That still does not change how this tech was used.

No argument. Both colonization and slavery were horribly immoral. I've never argued otherwise.

[Pax]

Originally posted by dainbramage20
Blacks arent respected in this society cause most are poorly educated at english and are driven like zombies to Consumerist-Media-Trends. Not to mention there taste in music is appauling. It wouldnt be so bad if it werent so demeaning to women.

My god, go to your local dance club and look at a 'thug' wrong. You might aswell have thrown him a middle.
He and his boys are all over you. I guess there are punks of every race under the age of 25. The problem is EVERY african american male under 25 thinks he's a punk.

Regarding the slave trade. What Nonsense. We brought them over unwillingly. Thats all that matters. We had moral Objections based on Christianity but it was powerful land-owners who brought them in and used them not everyday middle class people. I think we can all unite and agree on Blaming the Rich white people of the time.

You must be kidding? You're not kidding? Okay. I was'nt a punk and my sons are not punks.

My school system pushed students through schools. I failed most classes outright. Still I was given passing grades through I imagine some qouta only the principles and the teachers know for sure. I learned almost everything from reading science fiction and history books. If was not for Robert Heinlein, I'd be screwed.

Males under 25 act pretty much the same regardless of race. Your perspective is probably different because blacks are outside your comfort zone. Believe me, I've been to a country bar. Talk about nervous and looking at people wrong.

I think that I'm going to hold not only the people who were directly involved in the slave trade responsible and hold the people who did not speak out or do something about responsible. That would be american society in general. Including Lincoln who only freed the slaves as a political move. I will however applaud the guys who outlawed the importation of more slaves if their only motivation was decency. However, My readings teach me that they were looking at statistics and the possibility of a slave results. Negros were a large part of the southern population. So, I won't give those guys any credit either. Understand, all the germans have some responsibility for the holocaust. Only babies are truly innocent.

[David Floyd]

Understand, all the germans have some responsibility for the holocaust.

Personal responsibility? Actually, I haven't had that debate in a while, if you want to get it started I'm up for it.

For the record, I think "collective guilt" whether for the Germans during WW2 or anyone else is ridiculous.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Theben
Use a derogatory word within your own, can be either a joke or empowering. It's considered 'acceptable', though not everyone agrees.

When an outsider uses it it's an insult.

FE, I don't mind if an Italian calls me wop or dago, but would be insulted if a non-italian did.

and post ante deletia

The word WOP starting at Ellis Island, and it met "Without papers".

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Theben
jeez, you guys are actually responding to a trolling DL?

Pax isn't that bad.

[Verto]

No, not bad at all.

[Pax]

I don't think you have a grasp on the triangle trade here. The Africans got the bad end of the deal. I'm sure we can agree on that. Everyone dealing with the Europeans except the japanese got the bad end of the deal. They were the only ones to realize the significance of the European threat to their society and adapt.

If you guys think that Africa benefited from the European administration then read some books China Achebe or Ngaio. I think the best ones to get a full reflection are the ones that Ngaio wrote. In his books he talks about how the Kenyans gained independance from the British and still nothing had changed. His books earned him an exile.

African Americans are just now starting to having equality in this country. My dad's best friend was lynched in the 60's for sleeping with a white woman. The police knew who did it an did'nt even bother to pretend to look the other way. Blacks have only been "free" for a short period of time. We have only had these benefits in my lifetime. It could easily slip away.

Oh yeah,
rap music is not all ******s and *****es. There are rap songs that take on a variety of political, social, and economic issues. One of my favorites new world water.

[Pax]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Pax isn't that bad.

what's a trolling dl?

[DinoDoc]

A settler in the OTF.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
what's a trolling dl?

it's not "what's" its "who's"... and the answer is... you

[Theben]

Originally posted by David Floyd

Assuming they had the money to pay for a trip and had the desire to leave their home behind. This situation may have produced "higher quality" immigrants, yet that isn't my argument. My argument is that slavery created a situation that has led to millions of people living in America, when otherwise they probably would not have.

No argument here. It's a given.

No, and I have hardly argued otherwise.

I never said you did. But some have implied that blacks 'in general' hate whites, whereas I don't believe that's true (some do, I'm sure).

Yes, there are a lot of blacks in America without significant opportunities today, yet even so, they aren't starving to death or being conscripted into local militias, as they very well might be if they were in Africa.

This is a possibility. But they might not as well. You don't know, and we'll never know the 'what ifs'.

Sure, I'm quite aware of that. But resources in the ground don't mean a damn thing unless the technology and will exists to both get at and exploit those resources.

As Pax said, at some point European technology and influence was destined to occur. It's the historical manner in which it did occur that underlines the issue.

In any case, though, this would mean that a lot of people who live in America today would not, and likely would never end up living here. I'd call that quite negative, in comparison.

This would be the main point of disagreement. Are you saying the ends justify the means? B/c millionsof people died, often under brutal conditions, just so a few million more could live in the U.S. today. That's not too far from saying the jews are better off b/c of the holocaust, since it resulted in the creation of Israel. And had colonialism been different- such as merely an exchange of goods w/o coercion- it's could have been possible for africa, or parts of it, to make the leap to a 1st world nation. Look at Japan. Yes, there are many cultural differences but Japan was a backward nation in 1853. So it's possible that these people would be alive, in decent living conditions, and not be considered an 'inferior' group by many (including most europeans not too long ago). I say the costs of slavery outweigh the benefits on a considerable scale.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to live in either country

I'm sure there are plenty of cities in Brazil where you could live comfortably. Probably not in Afganistan.

And if you are arguing that a lack of slavery would mean that some African nations might have improved to the level of Brazil, then you haven't really countered my original point that blacks are/would be better off in America than in Africa, even a Brazil-like Africa.

Some blacks are. Some others may have been. Again, imigration. The ones who would be successful would be well off enough to immigrate, if they wanted to. Plus many more would be alive, and being alive is always a +.

I agree, yet prior to colonization tribal warfare and dictatorships were still rampant, and I very much suspect that corruption would still be a problem today.

Perhaps. But it wouldn't have been artificially maintained, at least by european powers. Again, what if.