If Bush is considered 'What is Republican'...

[DinoDoc]

Agathon seems like ha has the better case to me. I always thought that it was a little wierd when people started claiming to be social liberals and fiscal conservatives.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Agathon seems like ha has the better case to me. I always thought that it was a little wierd when people started claiming to be social liberals and fiscal conservatives.

Isn't that a libertarian?

[Arrian]

Sure, but not spending on such policies leads to other costs, particuarly to the environment, to the victims of crime and to future generations who have to deal with the lack of educated citizens due to underfunding of schools and the subsequent erosion of democracy (which needs a reasonable standard of public education to avoid descending into mindless populism). People are too dumb to see that tax cuts will usually cost them more in things they then have to pay for than the amount they got in the cut.

I know. I largely agree (though it's possible we would disagree on specifics). What I meant was that a fiscal conservative approach means emphasis on balancing the budget (and indeed more than that if we want to dig out of the hole we're in). That means spending cuts. Even though I would cut the military a bunch, that's not enough. Somebody posted a link here on the OT that let you play with the federal budget, and I kept coming in at ~100 million in the red. Then again, that's partly because I'm not big on drastic changes right away (tax increase? yes. Massive tax increase right now? no. Do it in stages. Ditto on spending cuts). Anyway, the drive to stop the fiscal bleeding would at times conflict with the drive to spend on social programs. That's all I was saying.

By and large it does. There is always some degree of corruption and mistakes, but these are unavoidable.

No, no it doesn't. The current administration (and congress which technically holds the purse strings) is out of control. Clinton (hmm, Dem pres, Repub congress) was so-so, although looks GREAT by comparison.

I'd say that there hasn't been fiscal sanity in the US government during the majority of my lifetime (born 1976).

-Arrian

[Agathon]

Compare the US with your average African country (say the Congo) on fiscal sanity. You aren't that bad. I thought conservatives were supposed to be pessimists.

Your electoral system seems to lend itself to pork politics, but it's not fatal.

Anyway, you want to know what Bush really stands for?

A boot stamping on a human face... forever...

[Arrian]

Comparisons to the Congo are pointless.

There is no value in pointing at an total disaster and saying "See! We're not as bad as them!" other than to avoid fixing our problems.

Even if we were the BEST in the world at it, there would probably be room for improvement (though at that point it probably wouldn't be a major issue for me in a campaign).

-Arrian

[Agathon]

Comparisons to the Congo are pointless.

There is no value in pointing at an total disaster and saying "See! We're not as bad as them!" other than to avoid fixing our problems.

Yes there is. A society that is subject to total disaster is obviously doing things wrong - and in history disaster is the norm. Take a look at a society like Canada which is very well run. People will complain about it, but perhaps they might realize that every functioning political institution is a compromise and that it just might not be possible to eliminate problematic government spending without eliminating a lot of good things.

Have you ever thought that it might be something to do with the kind of government that the US has, which has caused such enormous wealth which has then allowed the same government to squander some of it.

Even if we were the BEST in the world at it, there would probably be room for improvement (though at that point it probably wouldn't be a major issue for me in a campaign).

I guess I'm more of a pessimist than you. Working government that actually takes into account the interests of most citizens and is relatively free from corruption is a fairly recent phenomenon. I don't think it should be taken for granted.

There's nothing wrong with tweaking things to reduce corruption, but such policies can have unforeseen effects.

Acting like it's a major problem doesn't seem right to me. Perhaps we could run things a bit better, but let's put it in perspective. As long as citizens aren't running amok killing each other and there are no famines or epidemics or mass financial crashes, the government must be at least holding steady. Look at what happened in Yugoslavia - communism there was not ideal, but it was a hell of a lot better than what followed.

[Q Classic]

i say down with this current system and let's have a nice, quick move to a virtual democracy. shouldn't take more than 2-5 years for that, and with the statue of liberty, and the fact that we americans are a spiritual, and deeply religious people, we might luck out and switch in a turn.

[Arrian]

Yes there is. A society that is subject to total disaster is obviously doing things wrong - and in history disaster is the norm.

There can be lessons learned from catastrophic failure, yes. But there is also the danger of complacency - picking an example like the Congo (about as bad as you can get) to compare one's country to pretty much ensures your country will come out smelling like a rose. I find comparisons to other successful nations more productive.

guess I'm more of a pessimist than you. Working government that actually takes into account the interests of most citizens and is relatively free from corruption is a fairly recent phenomenon. I don't think it should be taken for granted.

It's not corruption I'm after (though of course I'm all for reducing that). It's reckless deficit spending. This has been going on for decades, WITH NO ATTEMPT AT PAYING BACK ANY OF IT! It IS a big issue. It's potentially huge.

I don't really understand how being complacent about serious problems (Canada doesn't seem to be nearly as bad with overspending) equals being pessimistic.

-Arrian

[Agathon]

Who votes for the overspenders?

Isn't it the voting public's job to vote them out? Presumably shame on us if they think they can get away with it.

[Arrian]

Well yeah, shame on us indeed. Of course, since both viable choices will overspend, I'm screwed.

I'd like to see the 2 major parties lose their stranglehold on politics in the USA (hence my voting 3rd party), but the chances are low anytime soon. I was actually very happy to see Perot shake things, even if he was kinda loony. I almost wish he had won.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Just a point for people to consider. Deficits are financed by the whole world. A balanced budget alternative is financed by American taxpayers alone.

[Q Classic]

strangely enough, i still prefer the balanced budget alternative.

why?

what if the rest of the world decides not to finance it?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Idiotic voters is why I'm starting to think elitism ain't a half-bad idea .

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Ned
Just a point for people to consider. Deficits are financed by the whole world.

and cost more in the long run.

A balanced budget alternative is financed by American taxpayers alone.

However we don't have to pay resultant interest.

Loans are not free.

As for the largest cost... the borrowing for the military is ridiculous... they desparately need to reevaluate goals and approaches, away from a monolithic Cold War model.

The move to properly funding Special Forces and invest in unmanned aircraft is a good first approach. We need to encourage government to consider the most efficient, and cost effective force structures for a 21st century world.

[Berzerker]

I'm a Bob Dole / John McCain type of Republican

Imran, no offense, but Bob Dole was one of the biggest pork barrel pushers ever to hit Congress. There was a book called "Senator For Sale" written about him and what he has done, but because he was in WWII he gets a pass from many who know what a crook he is... I live in a Republican state and I'll tell ya, the Repubs are damn near as bad if not worse than the Dems. State taxes here in the land of Dole are outrageous...