Terrorists or Freedom Fighters

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
I'm pointing out to DinoDoc and anyone else that the killing of innocents is done by groups like ETA, Spain, Al queada, and the U.S.. So that can't be measuring stick to decide who is labeled terrorist and who is not. Unless all the group just mentioned are terrorist.

You're an idiot. No offense or anything. But Spain is a parliamentary monarchy state that doesn't support terrorist like violence. Neither does the US. Pairing ETA and Spain together one and the same, is the biggest showing of stupidity.

[Pax]

Giancarlo/Fez,
Welcome to Spain.


Torture and ill-treatment of members of ethnic minorities or of foreigners are frequent and widespread in Spain, declared Amnesty International.
In the report ''Spain: Crisis of identity- race-related torture and ill-treatment by state agents'', launched today in Madrid, the human rights organization documented a notable increase in the cases of torture and ill-treatment of minorities between 1995 and 2002.
''Men, women and children have been verbally abused, physically ill-treated, detained without any explanation, and in some cases tortured,'' stated Gillian Fleming, Amnesty International's researcher on Spain.
''The cases we have documented show a pattern of violation by law enforcement officers of the rights of members of ethnic minorities or persons of non-Spanish origin. Discrimination against these people, tolerated by the authorities, makes them especially vulnerable to torture and ill-treatment by state officials.''
Despite the existence of laws and codes that attempt to guard against discriminatory or arbitrary conduct by state agents, ''racial profiling'' is common. The use of identity controls has given rise to the current situation whereby many people of foreign origin have suffered abuse and ill-treatment in Spain.

[Pax]

If you check out the Amnesty Intrnational site you can find another article that talks about human rights violations of the ETA and the Spanish authorities.
Giancarlo, You are a very unreasonable person. The exact type I would think would make a good terrorist/freedom fighter. The ability to tune everything out but those that agree with you. Good for you.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Torture and ill-treatment of members of ethnic minorities or of foreigners are frequent and widespread in Spain, declared Amnesty International.
In the report ''Spain: Crisis of identity- race-related torture and ill-treatment by state agents'', launched today in Madrid, the human rights organization documented a notable increase in the cases of torture and ill-treatment of minorities between 1995 and 2002.
''Men, women and children have been verbally abused, physically ill-treated, detained without any explanation, and in some cases tortured,'' stated Gillian Fleming, Amnesty International's researcher on Spain.
''The cases we have documented show a pattern of violation by law enforcement officers of the rights of members of ethnic minorities or persons of non-Spanish origin. Discrimination against these people, tolerated by the authorities, makes them especially vulnerable to torture and ill-treatment by state officials.''
Despite the existence of laws and codes that attempt to guard against discriminatory or arbitrary conduct by state agents, ''racial profiling'' is common. The use of identity controls has given rise to the current situation whereby many people of foreign origin have suffered abuse and ill-treatment in Spain.

Welcome to Spain? WTF do you know about my country? Nothing at all besides some minimal facts about the government. You know nothing about the reality of the country.

This is all false. Amnesty international can rot in hell because they are speaking lies. No such abuses exist. The Spanish authorities are very reasonable and follow guidelines according to the Geneva convention and international law. Abuses are probably minimal and sproadic in nature. And racial profiling isn't a human right abuse. We have to maintain laws in our nation. We have guidelines against real abuses. If an agent beats or tortures anybody, they will get in trouble, lose their job and face the courts. We do not live under Franco anymore, so spare me this bull****.

You are the very unreasonable person. Get a real source for a change. Amnesty bull**** won't cut it. The organization itself is full of crap.

A great terrorist? You should get your head examined.

[Pax]

I want to believe you. I wish I could take your word for it but.....you sound like a lunatic. Provide documentation that what you say is true and amnesty international is wrong.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
I want to believe you. I wish I could take your word for it but.....you sound like a lunatic. Provide documentation that what you say is true and amnesty international is wrong.

You are the one sounding like a lunatic believeing the crap the left wing group, Amnesty international puts out. And you even have the guts to put Spain on the same level of ETA. You're sick in the head. Our judicial system was slow at one point, taking years for some trials to process but that is being sped up by reforms done by the Popular Party.

I'm quoting: http://www.nationbynation.com/Spain/Human.html

"There are three levels of security forces. The National Police are responsible for nationwide investigations, security in urban areas, traffic control, and hostage rescue. The Civil Guard polices rural areas and controls borders and highways. Autonomous police forces have taken over many of the duties of the Civil Guard in Galicia, Catalunya, and the Basque country. The security forces are under the effective control of the Government. The security forces also maintain anticorruption units. Some members of the security forces committed human rights abuses. "

These abuses are sproadic, and the Anticorruption and Internal Affairs units prosecute those that do. These three levels of security forces have a very good human rights record.

"The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including cases of police brutality, lengthy pretrial detention, and delays in trials. The Government investigates allegations of human rights abuses by the security forces and punishes those found guilty of such abuses; however, investigations are often lengthy and punishments light."

The reason punishments are light is because cases like these are hard to mount, especially when the other officers there generally refuse to testify. The government nontheless tries to prosecute those officers who commit police brutality.

"d. Arbitrary Arrest, Detention, or Exile

The Constitution prohibits arbitrary arrest and detention, and the authorities respect these provisions in practice.

A suspect may not be held for more than 72 hours without a hearing except in cases involving terrorism, in which case the Penal Code permits holding a suspect an additional 2 days without a hearing and the possibility of incommunicado detention, provided that a judge authorizes such action."

This is an unrelated topic but damages the credibility of Amnesty International:

BY: IBRAHIM DAOUD

February 3rd, 1999

The timing of Amnesty's report on 'Ethiopia Expelling Eritreans' seems to be a co-ordinated act made to coincide with Eritrea's vilification campaign against the latest Security Council Resolution, calling on it to abide by the OAU Framework Agreement for peace. A cursory glance at what is transpiring at the United Nations regarding the adoption of a resolution by the Security Council strongly urging Eritrea to accept the OAU Framework Agreement for peace, will undoubtedly reveal how much Amnesty's report came in handy to create a convenient pretext for Eritrea to divert the attention of the international community from the real issue of its aggression.

There is no question that the fundamental cause for the sufferings and humanitarian disaster caused by the displacement of large numbers of people, is the aggression committed by Eritrea against the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ethiopia. The efforts so far made by the United States and Rwanda, the OAU and the UN Security Council to find a peaceful resolution to the conflict have been frustrated by the recalcitrant behaviour of the Eritrean regime which has refused to heed to the OAU's peace proposal.

To cover up its sinister designs, the Eritrean regime has resorted to all sorts of machinations and diversionary tactics to divert international opinion from its act of aggression. In this respect, one of the major diversionary tactics employed by the Eritrean regime is citing alleged violations of human rights of Eritreans living in Ethiopia. This cunning attitude of the Eritrean regime may not have come as a surprise had it not been co-ordinated with the report of Amnesty International, for reasons known only to the authors of the report under consideration.

Although it is difficult to assume that the act of such a reputable organisation will stoop so low as to serve the designs of an aggressor regime, it is incomprehensible why Amnesty International has chosen to publish its one sided and slanted report at such a critical time when the United Nations Security Council was seized of the matter and urging Eritrea to abide by the OAU Framework Agreement for peace.

Amnesty International visited Ethiopia from October 20 to 30, 1998 and was able to witness, first hand, the situation of thousands of Ethiopians who had been forcibly expelled from Eritrea. It has evidence about cases of rape victims and of torture, beatings and imprisonment of Ethiopians under inhuman conditions, including those who had been robbed of their property, whose dwellings had been demolished and had been evicted from their rented houses and thrown out on the street corners. There were those who had been summarily dismissed from their work en masse without any explanation and rendered destitute overnight. These were Ethiopians who begged for their freedom to leave for their own country and were made to pay exorbitant fees in order to be permitted to leave Eritrea.

How could Amnesty forget the emotional episode when its representatives were in tears while some of the victims of pregnancy after rape were recounting their ordeals at the hands of Eritrean soldiers. It is hard to believe that Amnesty has chosen to be silent on the fate of those thousands of dehumanised Ethiopians who have been forced out of Eritrea in a systematic and calculated pattern, carried out with Orwellian skill to force them out of the place they lived for generations.

Is this because they are the down trodden and the voiceless and do not belong to the fortunate middle class as were many of the Eritrean deportees from Ethiopia? Could Amnesty also have been duped by the skilful manipulations, carefully crafted not to give the semblance that Ethiopians were officially deported but, all the same, were made to leave Eritrea. There is one Ethiopian proverb that is telling of this typical Eritrean conduct: 'Invite him as not to antagonise him, shove him off as not to let him eat'. Otherwise, it becomes quite difficult to comprehend the deaf ear given by Amnesty International to the fate of thousands of Ethiopians who went out to plead before it of their numerous ordeals when it came to visit them at their temporary shelters. They all narrated their experiences, hoping that Amnesty would bring them the panacea and convey their sufferings to the world at large.

Yet its Report is one sided, suffers from double standards and biased statements which are sympathetic to the cause of Eritreans who had to leave Ethiopia for security reasons, while ignoring and forgetful of the inhuman conditions endured by Ethiopians in Eritrea. It has dismissed at a stroke the case of all the Ethiopians forced to leave Eritrea, saying that they left 'mainly because they lost their jobs?' Did Amnesty bother to ask why they lost their jobs? Was it part of a well-orchestrated scheme to force Ethiopians out of Eritrea or mere aberration? Are there other grounds for the expulsion? By its own account 22,000 (on October 1998) Ethiopians streamed out of Eritrea. Why would that happen all of a sudden? Has Amnesty tried to read any organised, systematic, policy oriented plan to force them out of Eritrea?

Well, it is quite apparent that Amnesty has not taken the trouble to check the reason behind such mass expulsion of Ethiopians. In contrast it has no qualms when it accuses Ethiopia of imprisoning Eritreans 'in harsh condition for several days before forcing them on buses'. It sees no evidence of Ethiopians being ill-treated and forcibly deported from Eritrea by the Eritrean authorities. The Amnesty report is perfectly tailored to fit Eritrea's propaganda.

When Ethiopia opened its doors to Amnesty, it was hoped that the organisation would free itself of any past biases or prejudices and provide a balanced account of the atrocities committed by the Eritrean authorities against Ethiopians. It was expected that it would treat truthfully the bombing of an elementary school in broad daylight killing students while attending classes; the bombing of a relief food depot destined for drought affected people; the displacement of thousands of Ethiopians from the occupied territory along the border area between the two countries, and above all the trekking on foot of at least over 40,000 Ethiopians from Eritrea under harsh conditions as a direct consequence of the systematic, organised and calculated policy of the Eritrean regime to force Ethiopians out of the country. Fortunately, the world has better information of the consequences of the Eritrean aggression and the havoc it has caused to innocent civilians. 'No laws of war' is the slogan of the Eritrean regime. It is only regrettable that such a reputable organisation like Amnesty International should miss such events and play to the tune of Eritrea's propaganda.

http://www.ethioembassy.org.uk/articles/articles/february-99/Ibrahim-Daoud-1.htm

And check out these sources:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=8141

"Amnesty International (AI) represents itself as a human rights watchdog organization that likes to style itself "the world's largest private human rights organization." Up to a point, it is. It has done valuable work in many countries on behalf of human rights and has shown light upon abuses of those rights in many a dark corner of the world. But Amnesty International has never restricted itself to protection of civil rights. It has long been a highly politicized organization that has ties with and identifies with the political agenda of the left. In particular, it has vehement anti-American and anti-Israel political biases. This leftist orientation has resulted in AI acting less and less as a human rights watchdog, and more and more as an anti-American and anti-Israel pit bull."

Now tell me.. should I really trust Amnesty International to give a non-biased view? As you can see with the evidence they hardly have not done that and even sided with anti-western organizations.

[Pax]

Alarmed Response To Outbreaks Of Racism in Europe
By Tito Drago

MADRID, Feb. 8 (IPS) -- Expressions of racism in Europe, like the violent incidents that continued today in Spain and the recent political ascent of a neo-Nazi party in Austria, have triggered alarm and a swift response from trade unions, politicians and other sectors.

Today saw a continuation of the violent incidents that broke out on Feb. 5 in the southern Spanish town of El Ejido on the Mediterranean coast, where one-fifth of local residents are immigrants, mainly employed as agricultural workers.

Physical assaults, threats, damage to homes and shops and the passive stance taken by the Spanish police sparked a sharp response from trade unions and political groups.

On the initiative of the Confederacion Sindical de Comisiones Obreras (CCOO), a delegation of trade unionists and politicians will travel to El Ejido tomorrow to "reaffirm the social and political consensus of the democratic forces against intolerance," CCOO secretary-general Antonio Gutierrez told IPS today.

Candido Mendez, secretary-general of Spain's other central union, the Union General de Trabajadores (UGT), representatives of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and delegates of leftist parties and the governing People's Party (PP) will make up the committee.

The two PP delegates, the secretary-general of the center-right party's Javier Arenas and Labor Minister Manuel Pimentel, lobbied for the Law on Aliens, which relaxed immigration restrictions and -- despite the resistance of the ruling party -- was approved in December.

The trade unionists and political leaders plan to visit the family of a young Spanish woman, Encarnacion Lopez, who was allegedly murdered by a Moroccan immigrant undergoing psychiatric treatment. Lopez's death sparked the violent incidents.

They also plan to visit the homes and properties of immigrants destroyed in the racist and xenophobic acts of the past few days, according to a CCOO spokesman.

But the stance taken by the PP's Arenas and Pimentel stands in contrast to the position of the government. Executive branch spokesman Josep Pique, a former communist who joined the PP two years ago, blamed the violence on the new Law on Aliens.

The mayor of El Ejido, Juan Enciso, also of the PP, agreed, stating that as long as the law was in force, "all they will achieve is to make it easier and easier for more scoundrels" to make it into Spain.

Enciso contended that support for the new law had contributed to "a flood of immigrants."

One of the aspects of the recent events that has drawn the heaviest criticism from the opposition, trade unions and NGOs was the police force's failure to prevent or crack down on the racist violence in El Ejido.

Francisco Santaella, secretary-general of the Sindicato Profesional de Policia Uniformada, one of the strongest police unions, said today that the police had received clear orders not to intervene.

Ombudsman Antonio Rovira condemned the racist aggression and demanded that the government inform him in detail of what had occurred, urging that justice be done and the law enforced against the offenses committed under the shelter of group anonymity.

The racist actions, in which violent groups of masked youngsters in El Ejido targeted mainly Moroccan immigrants, were praised by a Spanish neo-Nazi group on the Internet as an "awakening of civil society." By posting its web page on a Miami Internet server, the group, New Order, eludes legal action in Spain.

In Austria, meanwhile, a coalition comprised of the conservative People's Party and the neo-Nazi Liberal Party headed by Jorg Haider has governed the country since last week.

When the coalition was announced, the European Union (EU) responded by warning that bilateral relations between the 14 other members of the bloc and Austria would be frozen.

Haider responded by threatening to resort to the veto power held by the 15 EU members to paralyze activity in the bloc.

Several countries have already frozen relations, including Portugal, where Pres. Jorge Sampaio cancelled an official visit to Austria scheduled for March.

In Vienna itself, the Green Party launched a campaign called "Open Your Mouths," calling on Austrians to demonstrate their repudiation of the neo-Nazis.

I'm sure spain is a great place to live. I would not mind living there. It's not perfect though. I only know what I read about Spain and what others tell me. I would be more inclined to believe you and your sources if not for the fact that you seem to be a rude and obnoxious punk and there are other sources that say spain is not the paradise you pretend it is. No person, country, or thing is perfect. It's easy to find corruption, crime and misdeeds anywhere. Why do you take the stance that Spain is somehow different from the rest of the world.

[Pax]

Spanish Police Passive In Face Of Racist Violence
By Alicia Fraerman

MADRID, Feb. 7 (IPS) -- Spain's police have yet to detain any suspects for taking part in the rash of violent racist attacks that began on Feb. 5 against Arab immigrants in the Andalucian city of El Ejido, located on the Mediterranean coast.

Hundreds of people interrupted street traffic, blocked highway access to the city, torched and destroyed homes and businesses, and attacked immigrants and non-governmental organizations (NGOs).

The incidents were triggered on Feb. 5 with the murder of Encarnacion Lopez, age 26. The assassin, according to police sources, was a young Maghrebi (North African Arab) undergoing psychiatric treatment.

In immigrant neighborhoods, groups of rioters set homes on fire, while others broke into the offices of the Federation of Progressive Women and the NGO Almeria Acoge, throwing furniture, computers and files out the windows, then setting them ablaze.

Shops belonging to Arab immigrants were also attacked and destroyed, as were cars, restaurants and telephone booths in this city of 50,000, where more than 20 percent of the residents are immigrants.

The attackers broke through the shops' barred windows yelling "Fuera moros!" (Moors Out!), stealing money from cash registers, and looting alcoholic beverages from the pubs.

"Moro" (Moor) is a derogatory term used in Spain in reference to Arabs from North Africa in general, and to Moroccans in particular.

In the El Ejido municipality, 17,000 hectares are dedicated to agriculture, a sector that employs most of the local immigrants.

The recent incidents were the most serious, but not the first to be reported in the province of Almeria, home to El Ejido. In 1997, two Arab-origin men were brutally beaten by an agricultural businessman, and another was attacked in a bar by a man wielding a baseball bat.

In 1998, two hooded individuals shot a Moroccan immigrant to death in El Ejido. Then, in September 1999, hundreds of immigrants took to the city's streets to protest an organized gang's systematic aggressions against them.

Two weeks ago, a Moroccan slashed the throats of two Almerian farmers in El Ejido's greenhouse farming area.

Jose Torres Hurtado, the Spanish government's delegate in Andalucia, justified the security forces' passivity saying it is preferable that the police try to prevent further confrontations between immigrants and racists than to carry out a few arrests.

While NGOs and immigrant associations demand protection for the Arabs, the city's mayor, Juan Enciso (of the center-right Popular Party -- PP) has called for more police to contain the population.

The area "is the door to Africa and it is impossible to control all of these people who enter illegally," he maintained.


The mayor and other PP leaders refer to immigrants who enter Spain without visas as "illegals." The NGOs, meanwhile, consider them "irregulars" and demand that the government grant them legal resident permits.

Today, armed farmers patrolled this zone of greenhouses, where most immigrants are employed. The foreign-born workers, meanwhile, sought refuge in the city's Catholic church.

The violence reached such extremes on Feb. 5 that Fernando Hermoso, the Spanish government's assistant delegate to Andalucia, was thrown to the ground by a group of racists who then kicked him repeatedly, including in the head. This incident did not result in any arrests either.

Esteban Ibarra, president of the Movement against Intolerance, said the mayor's criticisms of the Law on Foreigners, passed in December, were "irresponsible." The legislation is intended to facilitate the legalisation of all immigrants in Spain.

Ibarra added that the situation must avoid giving voice to opportunists (in allusion to the El Ejido mayor) who launch "proclamations of xenophobia, exclusion and conflict."

Mustafa el Marabet, spokesman for the Moroccan Workers Association of Spain (ATIME), pointed out that even if the man accused in the crime against Encarnacion Lopez is proven guilty, the 150,000 Moroccans working in Spain cannot all be considered his accomplices.

El Marabet affirmed that the crime "has given more than one person an excuse to attack anyone who 'smells like a Moroccan'."

The Interior Ministry, meanwhile, denies any passivity in the matter and reports it has sent 700 additional police to El Ejido to establish peace.

[Giancarlo]

That is all a single party. Every country in the world has problems with extremism. It does not run the government. I am sure the Police and Civil Guard are swift in launching investigations into extremist groups.

It's not perfect though. I only know what I read about Spain and what others tell me.

No place is perfect. I never claimed was perfect but it is a pretty damn good place to live.

I would be more inclined to believe you and your sources if not for the fact that you seem to be a rude and obnoxious punk and there are other sources that say spain is not the paradise you pretend it is.

Again wrong. I never said that it was an absolute paradise where nothing is wrong. We still have problems with unemployment too. But we are a pretty great place to live.

Spain's situation is no different than that of the developed world. But once you start comparing the Spanish government to that of a terrorist group or a third world country I will have a problem with you and your stupidity.

[Giancarlo]

The government already said its position and is not taking a passive approach on the waves of extremist violence:

"The Interior Ministry, meanwhile, denies any passivity in the matter and reports it has sent 700 additional police to El Ejido to establish peace."

[Pax]

Comparing governments to terrorist groups is exactly what this thread is about.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Comparing governments to terrorist groups is exactly what this thread is about.

Compare governments like that of Joseph Stalin, Saddam Hussein or Robert Mugabe to that of a terrorist groups. These guys have terrorized their populations. Spain does not do that. I already proved Spanish citizens are guaranteed basic civil rights like that in the US.

[DinoDoc]

You're going to give yourself a stroke over something stupid if you keep this up Fez.

[BeBMan]

You're a good soul Dino

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You're going to give yourself a stroke over something stupid if you keep this up Fez.

I'm rather quite calm right now.. I have an icy hot patch on a sore part of my leg.. So I am just laying back and relaxing.