Terrorists or Freedom Fighters

[Kuciwalker]

And that definition has changed to generally label groups like Hamas.

[chequita guevara]

Note the quotes.

[Sirotnikov]

Fine. Ignore me.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Fine. Ignore me.

I thought I was.

[JCG]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
I do not mean to insult or anger any person. I simply state that the Basque' people have a claim on sovereignty. The ETA has chosen a means to make good on this claim.

A "means" which is not shared by most Basques, even if the most important part of the "ends" (Basque independence) is.

You may not agree with the methods.

Just as many Basque nationalists don't either, as yaroslav has remarked.

Many of them also don't agree with ETA's communist/socialist bent and would like to see a Basque state free of such influences (which would likely be implanted by force upon the rest of the Basques...I doubt that ETA will turn totally pacifist if a Basque state is established under non-ETA/ or non-pro-ETA rule).

It also seems to me a neutral obsever that the Basque seem to have a legitimate claim to autonomous rule.

Perhaps, that's a matter of personal opinion.

But having legitimate claim does not make all actions taken towards that aim equally legitimate.

Fortunately, many of the Basques themselves agree with that.

They appear to me to be a conquered people.

A people who were "conquered" (very roughly speaking due to lack of will to comment further on that point) a lot of time ago and in very different circumstances, and which now enjoy a lot of pseudo-federal rights under the current Spanish constitution (with several imperfections and so on, that is undeniable).

Many of them are still not satisfied and want more freedom and autonomy. That's ok, that's their right.
But they must do it in a legitimate and non-violent way, as the smarter and more reasonable of them have been trying to do. I applaud their efforts at taking that difficult and reasonable path and not falling for the temptation of violence.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Note the quotes.

I did... my point was that now, there is no "state terror" because terrorism has changed in meaning.

[Pax]

JCG,
There are very few diplomatic or political objectives that will ever be granted without either potential or applied force. Anything that is desired must be fought for.

[yaroslav]

Anything that is desired must be fought for.

That's sound very darengous.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
I do not mean to insult or anger any person. I simply state that the Basque' people have a claim on sovereignty. The ETA has chosen a means to make good on this claim. You may not agree with the methods.
It also seems to me a neutral obsever that the Basque seem to have a legitimate claim to autonomous rule. They appear to me to be a conquered people.

They have autonomous rule and they have a government which they can manage. The thing is though pro-Basque parties have won in the election, the pro-Madrid parties (PSOE and PP) made some striking gains (especially the PP). Pax, it seems to me you are trying to defend ETA. They are nothing but a bunch of little extremist gangs who kill innocent people. They have mostly killed innocent people with car bombs and the situation I described... putting explosives into a doll once, and killing a child and grandmother if I remember properly. You my friend are a fool to even say they are a conquered people. The Madrid government has done a lot for their economy and they have a lot of prosperity... the government even gave them autonomy where they can manage their own resources. You know nothing about Spain.

THEY ALREADY HAVE SOME DEGREE OF AUTONOMY PEOPLE!

If you don't believe me:

http://www.propuestaibarretxe.net/docs/state%20of%20autonomy.pdf

Those are the statues of Basque autonomy.. paraphrasing Article 1: "The Basque people, as an expression of their nationality constitute an autonomous community within the Spanish state.

[Pax]

Spain is in europe. It's capital is madrid. It has a constituional monarchy. It's predominantly catholic. Icould go on.

I'm not supporting the ETA cause. I'm saying it's crazy to label these groups as terrorists or even freedom fighters really. They are simply groups with agendas and means you may not agree with.
The ETA has killed innocents in their cause.
The germans sank innocent passenger ships in their cause(U.S. flag war not declared) WW1
Al quaeda killed innocents in 9/11 attacks
U.S. killed innocents in bombings in Iraq.

These groups all kill people to further their goals how can you say the ETA are terrorists and the U.S. not also be labeled terrorists.

[Kuciwalker]

The ETA targetted innocents. The Germans targetted ships with munitions on them. Al Quaeda targetted innocents. The US targetted the Iraqi military and command & control structure. Who you killed doesn't make you a terrorist, who you were trying to kill does. If a police officer shoots a criminal and misses, and hits a civilian, he isn't a "terrorist", he just MISSED.

[Pax]

Giancarlo,
This not the ETA thread. If the ETA's political objectives have been met then they would cease exist due to lack of purpose. Either they have not been met or they have been changed. It's not my place in life to determine what there goals are and since I know nothing of spain I have no intention to debate it.

[yaroslav]

Fez-Giancarlo:

Do you know that the propuestaibarretxe is an independentist source, do you?

[Pax]

lusitannia
Al quaeda considered everyone in WTC a combatant. It was also a known target. Embassies are targets. U.S. firms operating in Moslem world are targets. Americans are targets.
Take a look at the casualty list of Iraqi civillians

[Kuciwalker]

Al Quaeda cannot consider everyone in the WTC a "combatant" - you don't consider someone a combatant, they either are or they aren't.

Take a look at the casualty list of Iraqi civillians

whose deaths are caused by MISSES!

EDIT: oh, and the Lusitania was carrying munitions... it was our own damn fault it got sunk.