Terrorists or Freedom Fighters

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Spain is in europe. It's capital is madrid. It has a constituional monarchy. It's predominantly catholic. Icould go on.

No ****e, sherlock.

I'm saying it's crazy to label these groups as terrorists or even freedom fighters really.

Actually it is crazy not labeling them as terrorists.

They are simply groups with agendas and means you may not agree with.

I may not agree with? What are you stupid or something? Of course I don't agree with car bombings. What kind of agenda is that? Are you some how saying these thugs are not terrorists? They blow up cars and shoot innocent civilians.

The ETA has killed innocents in their cause.
The germans sank innocent passenger ships in their cause(U.S. flag war not declared) WW1
Al quaeda killed innocents in 9/11 attacks
U.S. killed innocents in bombings in Iraq.

The ETA are terrorists. Their cause is bull**** because most of the Basque people are against the attacks. Also explain why increasingly pro-Madrid parties are getting voted in the Basque autonomous government.

These groups all kill people to further their goals how can you say the ETA are terrorists and the U.S. not also be labeled terrorists.

You are a nut. The ETA are terrorists. The US is a great nation and to label them as terrorist is the biggest lie and biggest showing of stupidity.

Al quaeda considered everyone in WTC a combatant.

Again your stupidity is shown by your abhorrent arrogance.

Yaroslav: Yes I do know it is an independentist source. Just using it for a point I was making... almost making it impossible for the pro-ETA poster here (pax) to justify his case.

To even call ETA not a terrorist group is the biggest showing of stupidity I have ever seen on this forum.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by skywalker
Al Quaeda cannot consider everyone in the WTC a "combatant" - you don't consider someone a combatant, they either are or they aren't.

Take a look at the casualty list of Iraqi civillians

whose deaths are caused by MISSES!

EDIT: oh, and the Lusitania was carrying munitions... it was our own damn fault it got sunk.

Are you still taking this thread seriously? I got the hint that I should just amuse myself when Pax started justifing the murder of civilians by what the people killing them thought was right.

[Giancarlo]

I would seriously get into a fight with somebody (physical and verbal) if they said ETA was not a terrorist group. The abhorrent stupidity would piss me off so much. I am deeply and utterly offended by the notion that somebody considers ETA not a bunch of terrorist thugs.

[DinoDoc]

Prozac would help with that.

[Pax]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Are you still taking this thread seriously? I got the hint that I should just amuse myself when Pax started justifing the murder of civilians by what the people killing them thought was right.

it's funny you say that. I don't justify any killing as right. I just look at facts differently from you. I see history as an endless string of groups of people getting together and deciding to commit multiple violent acts. All of western history is like that. I also see a future in which people owe more allegiance to a specific organization than a state. I see little difference between the actions of Al queada, Spain, the U.S. and most other so called terrorist/freedom fighter groups. Historically, innocent women and children have been killed by all these groups with exception of the ones that use nonviolent social change as a means. These groups are either fewer or less well known than the violent ones. I wonder if we read the same history books. the blood must have been removed from yours.
Giancarlo/Fez,
I'm generally a non-violent man but I would'nt mind whipping your ass if the opportunitty presented itself , then maybe we could have a discussion free of insults and personal attacks which I consider ignorant, stupid, and unbecoming.

[Kuciwalker]

All of western history is like that.

All of history is like that. The West doesn't have a monopoly. The difference between the groups is their TARGET. If I try to shoot a criminal, but miss and hit a kid, I'm simply incompetent. If I try and shoot a kid, then I'm evil.

[Pax]

Check your history book on the U.S. treatment of the american indian, The Conquistadors, The franco-algerian war. These are only a few. All of these groups are responsible for the deaths of innocents.
Agreed, The west does not have a monopoly on use of violence but the dominance of the west came from the effective use of violence. That does not mean that the west is evil at all.

[Kuciwalker]

So? Look at china. Look anywhere. EVER SINGLE GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT HAS EVER EXISTED HAS USED VIOLENCE. You know why? Because it's effective. What's your point that the West has used violence?

EDIT: If I like to shoot kids, and you like to shoot kids, and for various reasons I have better aim and am able to shoot more kids, it doesn't somehow make me "better" or "worse" than you, just more competent.

[Pax]

I referred to western history only because that is what I have read most about. It's not any incrimination or attack on the west. You picked one word out of my statement and ran with it.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

I see history as an endless string of groups of people getting together and deciding to commit multiple violent acts. All of western history is like that.

Which will come as news to those of us familiar with the history of the Quakers and the Children's Crusade. Or the Suffragettes- they were willing to sacrifice their own lives, or damage property, but didn't succeed in killing anyone else.

Or indeed, the American Civil Rights' movement.

How many people did Martin Luther King kill, or order killed?

As Gandhi discovered, shame and publicity can be more use than bombs and bullets.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
I referred to western history only because that is what I have read most about. It's not any incrimination or attack on the west. You picked one word out of my statement and ran with it.

I'm still wondering what your point is, though.

[Pax]

I'm pointing out to DinoDoc and anyone else that the killing of innocents is done by groups like ETA, Spain, Al queada, and the U.S.. So that can't be measuring stick to decide who is labeled terrorist and who is not. Unless all the group just mentioned are terrorist.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes it can, if you change it just a bit to be the intentional killing of innocents.

[Pax]

I'm pointing out that history is filled with dead innocents

[Kuciwalker]

So?

History is also filled with flowers. So?