new capitalism vs communism thread

[Ned]

Kid, Sparta was a communist state as well. Agreed?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Kidicious, I'm glad you agree that the USSR was in fact a Communist state.

It had a very poor political structure. That was the biggest problem, and the problem that caused such suffering.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Kid, Sparta was a communist state as well. Agreed?

I don't think so. Why do you say that?

[Ned]

All Spartans were equal, they ate all meals in common, etc., etc.

[Ned]

Ditto the Helots. They were all equal as well.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
All Spartans were equal, they ate all meals in common, etc., etc.

Didn't they have slaves though?

[Ned]

Kid, the structure of society had the warriors and the field laborers. Both were equal.

In a way, the helots were slaves because they worked the fields. But they really worked for the state - from each according his ability to each according to his needs worked at both the Helot and the warrior levels of society.

There were no property rights and no wealth at any level. Thus the word Spartan.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Kid, the structure of society had the warriors and the field laborers. Both were equal.

In a way, the helots were slaves because they worked the fields. But they really worked for the state - from each according his ability to each according to his needs worked at both the Helot and the warrior levels of society.

There were no property rights and no wealth at any level. Thus the word Spartan.

They still had a class system. The Spartans had control over the division of labor, correct? If so there is a gray area. If one class controls another class, economically and politically, that is little different from one class formally owning the farms like in a feudalist society.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Government needs to mold citizens into communists.

Can't you people ever learn? If we want to make a good communist society, we're supposed to learn from past mistakes.

What you are doing here is to advocate totalitarianism. I thought we all agreed on loathing totalitarianism

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor


Can't you people ever learn? If we want to make a good communist society, we're supposed to learn from past mistakes.

What you are doing here is to advocate totalitarianism. I thought we all agreed on loathing totalitarianism

It's not totalitarianism. In fact, it's little different from what we have now. Now we mold citizens into being good capitalists. Citizens have to be socialized into the system that they exist in. There is no natural process that does that, only Kaos.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kidicious


They still had a class system. The Spartans had control over the division of labor, correct? If so there is a gray area. If one class controls another class, economically and politically, that is little different from one class formally owning the farms like in a feudalist society.

The helots worked for the state just as do workers in communist societies.

The warrior class did not have any wealth. They also worked for the state in a military capacity.

In one sense, the Spartan society was two classes, worker and army. The USSR had two such classes as well - plus a third, the Communist Party itself.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
In one sense, the Spartan society was two classes, worker and army. The USSR had two such classes as well - plus a third, the Communist Party itself.

I think Marx would say that no one should have to be forced into one class or the other. Certainly he would say that all citizens should be treated equally. It's hard to say whether the Spartans and the Helots were equal, but the Spartans had more political power (I think) so I think they were elite.

The USSR did not live up to Marxist ideals and really didn't ever make a honest effort to do so. Stalin claimed to be trying to make a true communist society, but of course that was bull. He was just making himself more powerfull.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious
It's not totalitarianism. In fact, it's little different from what we have now. Now we mold citizens into being good capitalists. Citizens have to be socialized into the system that they exist in.

OK, this is better already.

[Kuciwalker]

People don't have to be "molded" - they should be taught to think for themselves (methinks this is time to google some Nietzsche quotes )

[curtsibling]

@Ned:

The classical world to which the Spartans belonged, was a far cry from the 1900's which the USSR tainted.

Although far from perfect, the Spartan ideal was one of pure warrior philosophy.

Something far nobler than the meagre offerings of our insane and stained era...