Florida courts: "You gay people can't adopt children"

[Berzerker]

Mindseye -

lol You actually read this statement: "the average life expectancy of homosexuals is 20 to 30 years less than heterosexuals" ... and you believed it?

I trust Walter Williams, my mistake for not doing more research. But I can't say I believed those specific numbers, just that I believe homosexuals have a shorter life span and his point remains valid even if the numbers aren't that low.

Berzerker, you really need to get out of Kansas more often.

I spent ~12 years growing up in SF and another 10 or so in LA.

Both of the reports cited were based on the writings of Paul Cameron, who was unceremoniously tossed out of the American Psychological Association twenty years ago for his laughably unscientific research techniques and for deliberately distorting the work of other psychologists. His "research" has been utterly and thoroughly discredited.

To give you an idea of the quality of this fellow's work, he has also claimed his research showed that that 70% of homosexuals eat their partner's excrement, and that the average gay man has 110 sex partners per year. Cameron has publicly called for the castration of gay men, and the tattooing and quarantining of those with AIDS.

In a public address he one time announced that "Right now here in Lincoln, there is a 4-year-old boy who has had his genitals almost severed from his body in a restroom with a homosexual act." When police followed up on this claim, he admitted that it wasn't true, but that it "could be".

I suggest you vet your data more carefully before posting rubbish like this

Paul Cameron's name didn't appear in the article. But you go ahead and tell us just what is the life expectancy for homosexuals. Is it ~6-8 years less or more than heterosexuals? It's hard finding "unbiased" studies but I did give it a go:

CONCLUSION: In a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre are now experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by all men in Canada in the year 1871.

http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/3/657?maxt-show=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&searchid=QID_NOT_SET&FIRSTINDEX=&volume=26&firstpage=657&journalcode=intjepid

8-20 years less? The larger number ~matches the smaller number from Cameron.

[MrFun]

Oh puleez -- I can't believe the krap you take as facts, Berz.

[Berzerker]

Molly -

Uh, what piece of antiquated gender assignment role playing did you pick that 'fact' out of?

And I'm accused of having no sense of humor? I even attached a smilie to it and you guys still think it was a serious comment?

So 'butch' gay men must clearly have been closer to their fathers than their mothers, I suppose? And 'femme' lesbians clearly display a closer attachment to their mothers? Really, 'tis laughable.

Oh, now you laugh. I guess it just took you a bit longer to get it.

Time to get out of your Eisenhower era mental straitjacket, dear.

Time to get a clue.

In my infant school (Catholic Church run, not noticeably filled with flagrant screaming queens priests or otherwise) we had a dressing up box which all children used regardless of sex.

Can't ever recall the women's clothing in the box causing an outbreak of either transvestism or homosexuality in junior school or secondary school.

Sorry, not really interested in your flirtations with cross dressing.

[Berzerker]

Mr Fun -

Oh puleez -- I can't believe the krap you take as facts, Berz.

So that study is invalid too?

[MrFun]

Rest assured, gays do not have a shorter life expectancy.

[Berzerker]

That's assuring.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Berzerker
True, and the goal of adoption should be to find environments with the fewest disconnects, not more only to pretend they don't exist.

But you've yet in any way to substantiate that a kid having gay parents will be such a "disconnect." You're just assuming it will be.

How can you argue there is no evidence only to cite evidence yourself?

What evidence did I cite? I cited none, so that's another strawman.

Can the homosexuals here actually claim they felt no anxiety over their parents finding out about their orientation?

Who argued this? Who even suggested this? Read my post--I specifically stated that homosexual kids feel a great deal of angst over their parents finding out their orientation. But that doesn't remotely equate to an emotional disconnect between parents and kids because one is straight and the other is gay. Strangely enough, gay and straight people can relate to each other on deeply intimate levels, despite their sexual orientation. Who would have thought as such?

Correct (to a degree), I said this in my post. Furthermore, the heterosexual kid will "fit" in better with the community at large. But this same child will still feel a disconnect with his homosexual parents, albeit not as great if the roles are changed. And he will still face more trouble in the larger community.

Again, this "disconnect" you claim is unsubstantiated. I don't feel any disconnect with my parents because they are heterosexual. I don't feel a disconnect with my best friends, most of whom are heterosexual. But your simplistic notions of intimate human relationships are revealing and troublesome...

I suspect it would, that's why I've been asking people if they would rather see a homosexual child adopted by a homosexual couple. But I'm not getting an answer... I wonder why... But if you consider that a boon for a homosexual child, why would you consider it a plus or inconsequential for a heterosexual child? You've basicly just made my case for me...

I doubt I made any case for you, as you've presented no argument other than "I think homosexuals are less-fit parents" without substantiating it with any sort of evidence. So you're biased, we knew that all along.

The reason I think it would be a boon to a gay kid, and possibly a straight kid, is not because of any instrinsic value of the parents being homosexual, it's because as openly gay folks, should their child be gay, they won't (likely) have difficulty accepting it, so the gay kid will likely go through less inner turmoil than with heterosexual parents whose reactions he may not be able to predict. This illustrates a particular advantage of openly gay couples, in that, for the most part, their "dirtiest laundry" is aired, so they will tend to be honest, accepting parents for their children. Yes, that's a sweeping generalization, but I think it's a valid assumption.

Can heterosexual parents be that way? Absolutely, I know plenty of gay people who have wonderfully accepting straight parents. I would have no objection to such folks adopting a gay kid, and I sincerely doubt there'd be any serious disconnect between the kid and the parents. But there are also plenty of heterosexual parents who wouldn't be accepting of it, and some who could be downright nasty about it. This is something that would be, we'd agree, pretty unlikely with a gay couple, yes?

On a sidenote about the power of the homosexual/liberal lobby:

Funny how you seem to want to shift the topic to something that isn't particularly enlightening or relevant.

[Berzerker]

Boris -

But you've yet in any way to substantiate that a kid having gay parents will be such a "disconnect." You're just assuming it will be.

A safe assumption based in part on the disconnect homosexual children have with their heterosexual parents.

What evidence did I cite? I cited none, so that's another strawman.

Here is what you said:

but so far there is no conclusive empiric evidence, or even a substantial amount of anecdotal evidence, that the sexual orientation of the parents has any significant effect on the children. Homosexual kids have the burden that their parents might not accept them being homosexual, as they have no idea how their parents will react.

Why would you refer to the burden of homosexual children and then claim there is no evidence for such a burden?

Who argued this? Who even suggested this? Read my post--I specifically stated that homosexual kids feel a great deal of angst over their parents finding out their orientation.

And I said that long before you, but that's the point, no one here is arguing that homosexual children feel no disconnect based on their orientation and the heterosexual orientation of their parents (even though you've said their is no empirical or substantial anecdotal evidence of a disconnect only to contradict that assertion in the same paragraph).

But that doesn't remotely equate to an emotional disconnect between parents and kids because one is straight and the other is gay. Strangely enough, gay and straight people can relate to each other on deeply intimate levels, despite their sexual orientation. Who would have thought as such?

And you accuse me of introducing strawmen? Some homosexuals and heterosexuals can relate, and some don't. Wouldn't it be wiser to avoid subjecting already troubled children to additional sources of trouble?

Again, this "disconnect" you claim is unsubstantiated. I don't feel any disconnect with my parents because they are heterosexual. I don't feel a disconnect with my best friends, most of whom are heterosexual. But your simplistic notions of intimate human relationships are revealing and troublesome...

Ah, so anecdotal evidence doesn't count except when you want to use it? When did you reveal your orientation to your parents? Any anxiety about "coming out"? If so, that's called a disconnect and you've already acknowledged it occurs. I can quote you again if you want...

I doubt I made any case for you, as you've presented no argument other than "I think homosexuals are less-fit parents" without substantiating it with any sort of evidence. So you're biased, we knew that all along.

Where did I say homosexuals are unfit? It isn't about the ability of homosexuals, it's about how children adopt to new situations and placing adopted children into environments that are the most conducive, i.e., least "foreign", to their needs.

The reason I think it would be a boon to a gay kid, and possibly a straight kid, is not because of any instrinsic value of the parents being homosexual, it's because as openly gay folks, should their child be gay, they won't (likely) have difficulty accepting it, so the gay kid will likely go through less inner turmoil than with heterosexual parents whose reactions he may not be able to predict. This illustrates a particular advantage of openly gay couples, in that, for the most part, their "dirtiest laundry" is aired, so they will tend to be honest, accepting parents for their children. Yes, that's a sweeping generalization, but I think it's a valid assumption.

That was the assumption I made and which you decry. So a homosexual child would be better off being adopted by a homosexual couple because it is easier for that child to relate to the new environment. But then you illogically conclude that a heterosexual child might be better off in that same environment rather than with heterosexual parents. Yes, the heterosexual child won't have to deal with "coming out" before homosexual parents, but they will still be "different" from them and they will still have to deal with the community at large.

Can heterosexual parents be that way? Absolutely, I know plenty of gay people who have wonderfully accepting straight parents. I would have no objection to such folks adopting a gay kid, and I sincerely doubt there'd be any serious disconnect between the kid and the parents.

But a child, as you said, never really knows how accepting his parents will be and that will be a source of angst. So why put them into that situation when it can be avoided?

But there are also plenty of heterosexual parents who wouldn't be accepting of it, and some who could be downright nasty about it. This is something that would be, we'd agree, pretty unlikely with a gay couple, yes?

True, I'd be surprised as hell if homosexual parents became nasty about their child, adopted or not, being heterosexual. That merely lessens the disconnect though, a disconnect that would not exist at all if that child was with heterosexual parents.

Funny how you seem to want to shift the topic to something that isn't particularly enlightening or relevant.

It is relevant, if the homosexual/liberal lobby can put that much pressure on insurance companies, then it can put pressure on adoption agencies to ignore reality. But I'm still here debating the main issue so don't accuse me of trying to run.

[Berzerker]

1) Would you rather see a homosexual child adopted by a homosexual couple than by a heterosexual couple?

2) Would you rather see a black child adopted by a black couple than a white couple?

What is the rationale for your answers?


So far only Boris has taken (1) on and he agrees it would be better for a homosexual child to be adopted by a homosexual couple. That, Boris, is making my case for me even though you've somehow concluded it might be better for that homosexual couple to adopt a heterosexual child too...

Any other takers or are y'all too busy trying to remove your skulls from that wall?

[Imran Siddiqui]

even though you've somehow concluded it might be better for that homosexual couple to adopt a heterosexual child too...

Why is this strange in any way? Heterosexuals being the vast majority of the populace will not as likely be discriminated. Homosexuals probably will, so it would be better for them to have parents who more likely than not will not look down on their sexual preference and can give them advice on how to deal with it. Of course that doesn't mean homosexual kids should never be adopted by heterosexual parents.

That point is moot anyway, because when you are adopting a kid, they are not even close to be sexually active and thus you cannot be aware what sexual orientation they are.

[blackice]

That point is moot anyway, because when you are adopting a kid, they are not even close to be sexually active and thus you cannot be aware what sexual orientation they are.

Really and in your mind at what age are kids adopted? And thier common sexual maturity?

Personally as long as the child is comfortable in his or her surroundings, well educated, happy, clean, well feed, looked after and last but not least happy and loved. WhGiAFu...

Good job

Try a foster home on for size...

[Berzerker]

Why is this strange in any way? Heterosexuals being the vast majority of the populace will not as likely be discriminated. Homosexuals probably will, so it would be better for them to have parents who more likely than not will not look down on their sexual preference and can give them advice on how to deal with it. Of course that doesn't mean homosexual kids should never be adopted by heterosexual parents.

It isn't strange, it probably is better for a homosexual child to be adopted by a homosexual couple than a heterosexual couple because of the connection they share. That's my point about heterosexuals adopting heterosexual children, and blacks adopting black children and so on. Those who argue against this are taking the position that fewer connections are as valid as more connections, except when it comes to homosexual children being adopted by homosexuals. That's what I find strange...

That point is moot anyway, because when you are adopting a kid, they are not even close to be sexually active and thus you cannot be aware what sexual orientation they are.

Then no one knows if they are heterosexual or homosexual before puberty? I thought homosexuals have been claiming they knew of their orientation, or at least that they were "different", long before puberty. And it is relevant given the fact most children are, or will be, heterosexual and this problem will arise even if it doesn't exist at the time of adoption. So the odds are that an adopted child will be heterosexual and that should be taken into account wrt the sexual orientation of the adopting couple.

[Berzerker]

Remember the SNL skit where a new medicine is marketed to heterosexual parents who are coming to the realisation that their pre-pubescent children are homosexual? You know, the boy is playing with dolls or dressing up in mommy's clothes or cooking dinner like a master chef or being a cheerleader during sporting events. Sure, stereotypes, but all based on the premise that homosexuality and heterosexuality are or can be revealed long before puberty.

[Drake Tungsten]

The drug was called Homocil...

[Berzerker]

Homosexual and docile combined? The parents all looked like they were on some happy pills...