If the US civil war was fought today...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by jimmytrick


Well, then. The "Winner Gets To Write The History" thing allows Northerners to DENY historical accuracy, scholarly work and PLAIN FACT that slavery was not the cause of the War of Northern Agression.

Nope, that's not the case either.

In the late nineteenth century, white Northerners and white Southerners that included Civil War veterans reconciled with one another in the spirit of white supremacy.

As a result, the North lost the Civil War by reconciling with the South on their terms, in regards to race relations.

And because of this reconciliation through the fraternal spirit of white supremacy, the losers of the war have done a great job in mythologizing the causes of that war -- an exception to the historical norm of the victor always writing myths of a war.

Read David Blight's book -- Race and Reunion.

[Patroklos]

Not fighting Hitler would not have saved lives.

Not fighting Saddam would not have saved lives.

Not fighting the Civil War would have saved lives.

Speeding up the end of slavery by a decade or two at the cost of a million dead is not an advantage. And what did the freed slaves inherit from the war? How about a devastated economy that forced so many to become economic refugees, who then had to move to the nouth to be despised by poor whites there who now have to compete with them economically. How about an enraged and embittered Southern population who couldn't take out their rage on the Yankee's anymore, but there were alot of ex-slaves around who were, thanks to Lincoln, the ideological heart of their arch eneimes war aims and thus NOW viewed as the cause of their misery.

The Civil War created American racism. Does any of the European countries that participated heavily in the slave trade but ended it voluntarily have the same problems?

Sure Europe was ahead of us on the slave issue, but they were ahead of us at a lot of things. They did have a 1000 year head start. We caught up with them in every other field in 20 more years, slavery would be no different.

Does slavery exist in the world today. Yes. Where is it primarily located except for extrodinary minority exceptions? The undeveloped world. What did America do in from 1850-1880? We developed from an agriculture based economy (that might be able to use slaves profitably) to an industrial based one (that has no need of slaves, at least of that type. Communist rhetoric here). Would that development have been faster had we not had to stop for a decade to fight a war of liberation that in fact just transformed slavery instead of ending it. Yes.

There is no drawback to not fighting the Civil War. At the very least freed slaves suffered just as much for a good period after the war, even more so, than they were before it. Sure they had a taste of freedom. But I would imagine after bieng a slave for a lifetime you became a little more pragmatic about things like not living in burned out cities and ravaged farms, having your more powerful neighbors hating you as the embodiement of their victorious enemies, and having nothing but whatever you can pick from your former masters smoldering foundation of a plantation house to feed your children on in the new "free" world.

Again, applying the ideology of today to explain why people acted like they did 150 years ago is pure folly.

[MrFun]

sigh

[monkspider]

Originally posted by MrFun
sigh

Sighing is pure folly.

[Ned]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Hey, Ned. I'll be willing to cede the point and accept that Abe was acting on his conscience as soon as the Yanks round here are willing to stipulate that Davis and other Southern leaders were doing likewise.

Maybe if the demonizations can end we can someday stop fighting this war.

Well even though I was born in Chicago, it was while my Dad was at medical school. We then moved back to KC. This makes me somewhat of a Southerner myself.

Just a point about Lincoln, how can the South demonize him for causing the war and glorify him for wanting a quick and peaceful reunification?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Hey, Ned. I'll be willing to cede the point and accept that Abe was acting on his conscience as soon as the Yanks round here are willing to stipulate that Davis and other Southern leaders were doing likewise.

Maybe if the demonizations can end we can someday stop fighting this war.

I do not glorify Lincoln in the way that people like SlowwHand glorify Davis.

Nor do I demonize white Southerners -- I'm well versed on the experiences of white Southern Unionists, and I also know that the "Lost Cause" does not have any appeal today because white Southerners still believe slavery was a good thing (DUH!), but that they hold onto the "Lost Cause" out of ignorance, or delibrate distortion of our history.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun


I do not glorify Lincoln in the way that people like SlowwHand glorify Davis.

Nor do I demonize white Southerners -- I'm well versed on the experiences of white Southern Unionists, and I also know that the "Lost Cause" does not have any appeal today because white Southerners still believe slavery was a good thing (DUH!), but that they hold onto the "Lost Cause" out of ignorance, or delibrate distortion of our history.

I think therein lies the rub. The assumption is that "white southerners think slavery was a good thing" is a questionable statement at best and speaks volumes to the outrage voiced by folks like Zell Miller.

[MrFun]

No ****!!

How many times do I have to explain that I realize the VAST majority of white Southerners today do not believe that slavery was a good thing!?!?

[Ned]

I think the million figure is double the KIA. Here is a table summarizing America's casualties:

                                 <------------Casualties------------>
                                    [-----Deaths---]                             <-----Percentages-----> Duration 
Conflict                Enrolled    Combat   Other   Wounded     Total    Ratio  KIA    Dead   Casualty   Months  KIA/Month          
Revolutionary War          200.0    4,435   *          6,188      10,623   2.4   2.2%    2.2%     5.3%      80       55
War of 1812                286.0    2,260   *          4,505       6,765   3.0   0.8%    0.8%     2.4%      30       75
Mexican War                 78.7    1,733   11,550     4,152      17,435   1.3   2.2%   16.9%    22.2%      20       87
Civil War: Union         2,803.3  110,070  249,458   275,175     634,703   1.8   3.9%   12.8%    22.6%      48    2,293
           Confederate   1,064.2   74,524  124,000   137,000 +   335,524   1.7   7.0%   18.7%    31.5%      48    1,553
           Combined      3,867.5  184,594  373,458   412,175 +   970,227   1.7   4.8%   14.4%    25.1%      48    3,846
Spanish-American War       306.8      385    2,061     1,662       4,108   1.7   0.1%    0.8%     1.3%       4       96 &
World War I              4,743.8   53,513   63,195   204,002     320,710   2.7   1.1%    2.5%     6.8%      19    2,816
World War II            16,353.7  292,131  115,185   670,846   1,078,162   2.6   1.8%    2.5%     6.6%      44    6,639
Korean War               5,764.1   33,651   *        103,284     136,935   4.1   0.6%    0.6%     2.4%      37      909
Vietnam War              8,744.0   47,369   10,799   153,303     211,471   3.6   0.5%    0.7%     2.4%      90      526
Gulf War                 2,750.0      148      145       467 ^       760   2.6   0.0%    0.0%     0.0%       1      148

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I understand. But the point of the matter is southern whites are especially sensitized to any perceived implication of their so-called racism even if it is a tiny minorityof the pop. And truth be told are getting tired of hearing it.

I believe the depth of this feeling of unfair victimization colors much of the current souths political landscape today. That and breaking the stereotypes of redneck ignoramuses.

[Ned]

You Southerners who lament the casualties seem to have a hard time understanding who started the war.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Hey don't look at me I'm a damn Yankee carpet bagger.

I simply am reading the mood of the neighbors.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by jimmytrick


Sure, that right was ratified by cold steel and rifled muskets.

Precisely.

[Whaleboy]

So who did start it?

If you mean that the south started it by splitting from the North, then try again. Did the South invade the North first? Such is the nature of war that whoever started it was the first person to invade or declare war.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Ned
You Southerners who lament the casualties seem to have a hard time understanding who started the war.

The North started the war. Abe was behind it.