Israeli vandalises Swedish suicide bomber art

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Is there any group of people more self righteous than right wing Israelis?

Communists...

[Ned]

Agathon said

And here's the crux of the matter. The UN decided to create a Jewish state against the will of the long term inhabitants of the country. ...The formation of Israel was an act perpetrated against the Arabs by other people. Is it any wonder they are pissed off. It would have been better to have created a multiethnic democracy there rather than partitioning which ended up throwing hundreds of thousands of Arabs out of their homes.

Do you neglect that the Arabs were trying to kill all the Jews in the Mandate? Who was going to protect them when the Brits left?

[Ned]

dp

[Mercator]

Yahweh

[Ned]

I think Agathon envisions a reenactment of the crossing of the Red Sea where God parts the waters all the way to Canada so that the Jews could once again flee butchering armies.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ned
Agathon said

Do you neglect that the Arabs were trying to kill all the Jews in the Mandate? Who was going to protect them when the Brits left?

Do I neglect to notice that the Jews were engaging in terrorism as well? Do I neglect to notice that if a reasonable solution that did not involve partition of the creation of an ethnic state had been effected, that we might not have this problem?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ned
I think Agathon envisions a reenactment of the crossing of the Red Sea where God parts the waters all the way to Canada so that the Jews could once again flee butchering armies.

Why not? They are well liked here, prosperous and have a strong sense of community. I believe the last significant anti-semitic violence in Toronto was about 60 years ago and started over a baseball game, so there's not much chance of a pogrom.

What's not to like?

[Agathon]

Here's an interesting article from which I quote:

To argue that hostility to Israel and hostility to Jews are one and the same thing is to conflate the Jewish state with the Jewish people. In fact, Israel is one thing, Jewry another. Accordingly, anti-Zionism is one thing, anti-Semitism another. They are separate. To say they are separate is not to say that they are never connected. But they are independent variables that can be connected in different ways.

The history of the Zionist movement itself illustrates the point. Consider the background to the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, by which the British government committed itself to the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. This was a major coup for the Zionist movement. But it would be wrong to think that it was the product of pro-Jewish sentiment within the British establishment. On the contrary, British support for Zionism was spearheaded by anti-Semites within the civil and foreign service. These people believed that Jews, acting collectively, were manipulating world events from behind the scenes. Consequently, they vastly exaggerated the power and influence of the tiny Zionist movement. Balfour himself took a similar view. Moreover, some years earlier, as Prime Minister, he introduced the Aliens Bill (which became law in 1905), aimed specifically at restricting admission of Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. He warned Parliament at the time that the Jews "remained a people apart."

The Balfour Declaration was delayed by opposition. The opposition was not led by a rival anti-Semitic faction, as it were, but by Jews. Some of the most prominent members of the British Jewish community were opposed to the Zionist cause. Among them was Edwin Montagu, a member of the Cabinet. Montagu rejected what he saw as the basic premise of Zionism: that Jews constitute a separate nation. In an official memorandum in August 1917, he wrote: "I wish to place on record my view that the policy of His Majesty's Government is anti-Semitic in result and will prove a rallying ground for anti-Semites in every country in the world." A similar view was held by the Conjoint Committee, which joined the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Anglo-Jewish Association, and represented British Jewry in foreign affairs. In a long letter that ran in the May 24, 1917, edition of the London Times, the committee gave what was, in effect, a critique of mainstream Zionist ideology. Commenting on the claim that "the Jewish settlement in Palestine shall be recognized as possessing a national character in a political sense," the committee wrote:

It is part and parcel of a wider Zionist theory, which regards all the Jewish communities of the world as constituting one homeless nationality, incapable of complete social and political identification, with the nations among whom they dwelt, and it is argued that for this homeless nationality, a political center and an always available homeland in Palestine are necessary. Against this theory the Conjoint Committee strongly and earnestly protests.

So in 1917 anti-Semites were promoting the Balfour Declaration while a significant number of Jews opposed it. Does it follow that Zionism, in and of itself, is anti-Semitic? Of course not. But this episode does undercut the converse claim: that anti-Zionism is necessarily so.

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20040202&s=klug

[Ned]

Originally posted by Agathon


Why not? They are well liked here, prosperous and have a strong sense of community. I believe the last significant anti-semitic violence in Toronto was about 60 years ago and started over a baseball game, so there's not much chance of a pogrom.

What's not to like?

Agathon, I agree that Jews may have been welcomed in Canada and in the United States in 1947-48. But that offer was never made by either country, or for that matter by any other country. The Jews of Palestine were left with no choice but to stand and fight for the very lives.

Viewed in this light, the effort by the United Nations to partition Palestine into two states, one Arab and one Jew, was a noble effort at a peaceful settlement that unfortunately failed. It was not an effort to steal land from the Arab nation.

[cinch]

Originally posted by Ned


Agathon, I agree that Jews may have been welcomed in Canada and in the United States in 1947-48. But that offer was never made by either country, or for that matter by any other country. The Jews of Palestine were left with no choice but to stand and fight for the very lives.

Viewed in this light, the effort by the United Nations to partition Palestine into two states, one Arab and one Jew, was a noble effort at a peaceful settlement that unfortunately failed. It was not an effort to steal land from the Arab nation.

Excellent point, Nedifice!

Canada and the United States let the still anti-semitic undercurrent of the times dictate their immigration policy in that instant, which was to the detriment of both Jews and non-Jewish North Americans. Israel was created out of necessity, when it didn't need to be at all. The blame lies squarely on us.

This is why I (usually) support Israel in practice, but not really in theory.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The Zionists used terrorism to establish their own country, plain and simple.

A minority of zionist extremists used terrorism - and were roundly condemned by main stream zionists.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Agathon


Why not? They are well liked here, prosperous and have a strong sense of community. I believe the last significant anti-semitic violence in Toronto was about 60 years ago and started over a baseball game, so there's not much chance of a pogrom.

You would believe wrong.

Toronto Jew murdered by skinheads
Last Updated Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:14:30
TORONTO - A father of six was stabbed to death at an Israeli-owned pizzeria early Sunday in what investigators say might have been a hate-motivated crime against a random victim.




The 48-year-old Hasidic Jew was attacked by two men in their 20s with shaved heads, Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino told a news conference. A woman was with the suspects.

"Although the motive for this very cowardly crime has yet to be determined, we are looking at the possibility of this being a hate-motivated crime," Fantino told reporters.

David Rosenzweig did not know his attackers, and may have been singled out because he was wearing a yarmulke, identifying him as Jewish, according to police.

"He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time – an innocent victim," Fantino said.




Witnesses said the two skinheads entered the restaurant and tried to provoke the owner and some customers. One of the men was carrying a long knife.

The skinheads confronted Rosenzweig as they left the shop, stabbing him in the back. He had been helping his son repair a car outside the pizzeria at the time.

Police issued a first-degree murder warrant for 20-year-old Christopher Steven McBride, who may be with Mercedes Asante, 19 (also known as Sylvia Asante). Police did not release the name of the third suspect.

The killing is Toronto's 16th homicide of 2002. Sgt. Jim Muscat said investigators are interviewing all those involved and are trying to establish a motive for the murder.

http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/07/14/hate_murder0200714

There've also been some synagogues vandalized, IIRC.

(That's not to say Toronto is an anti-semetic haven, just trying to put a little reality in)

[Ned]

Originally posted by cinch


Excellent point, Nedifice!

Canada and the United States let the still anti-semitic undercurrent of the times dictate their immigration policy in that instant, which was to the detriment of both Jews and non-Jewish North Americans. Israel was created out of necessity, when it didn't need to be at all. The blame lies squarely on us.

This is why I (usually) support Israel in practice, but not really in theory.

Well to the extent that one disagreed with the creation of Israel, it is highly inappropriate, as you suggest cinch, to criticize the creation of Israel if you had the opportunity to open your borders to the Jews of Palestine and failed to do so. Had they had a place to go, many may have left Palestine rather than risk their lives and property to the Arabs under a Palestinian state. Had they had a place to go and live in peace and prosperity, the need for Israel would have evaporated and it may have never come into existence.

But the world offered the Jews no place of refuge. The world, including Canada and United States, essentially abandoned them to their fate. The story of Israel is not a story of theft of Arab land, but rather is the story of a survival of an ancient people in a world where they were not only not accepted, but slaughtered in the millions.

Those who today side with the Palestinians against Israelis based upon a "theft of land" theory of the creation of Israel are completely unfair to the Jews -- so much so that one must consider the charge of anti-Semitism to be a fair charge.

[dannubis]

It is NOT anti-semitism to have critisism on the way the israeli governement has handled the entire of the conflict in the ME. In the seventies they were right, in the eighties and afterwards not. I don't advocate the dissolution of the state of israel. I just don't see where they think they earned the right to call everyone who disagrees with their policies a jew hater.

And this is how these kind of discussions always turn out :

-"You don't fully support the state of israel in their just and divine fight against the dark forces of the palestines, so you're an antisemite..."

-"No wait, listen"

-"Shut up antisemite..."

[Ned]

dannubis, agreed. However there are many who argue from the premise that Israel was "illegally" created, essentially adopting the most extreme position of the terrorist organizations that Israel has no right to exist.