German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else?

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I'm pretty sure that if that is being shown to you in Russian, the original version of what Winnie would have said in English would not have been that flattering.

I'd love to see an original English text though.

I've spend about 40 minutes to find original text. It's not a complete quote, some parts are still missing.
Churchill about Stalin:
"He was an outstanding person impressing our severe time of the period in which his life elapsed. Stalin was a man of exceptional energy, erudition and unbending willpower, harsh, strict and relentless as in work, so in talk, whom even I, educated in English parliament, could not oppose in any way.... In his works gigantic strength was resounded. In Stalin this strength was so great that he seemed unique among the leaders of all times and peoples.... His influence on people was irresistible. When he entered the hall of the Yalta Conference, all of us stood up as if at someone's command. A strange thing is that we stood at attention. Stalin possessed profound, logical and intelligent wisdom devoid of any panic. He was a peerless master able to find, at a difficult moment, a way out of the most hopeless situation.... This was a man who destroyed his enemy with the hands of his enemies, and forced us, whom he openly called imperialists, to fight against imperialists.... He took over Russia with a wooden plough, but left it equipped with atomic weapons"

So, Sandman, you still think that Stalin was an imbecile and Churchill was lier?

[Saras]

Stalin was not an imbecile. He was a cunning, smart, bloodthirsty tyrant.

[Mr. Harley]

Ned, I'm familiar with the arguments internal to the Hirohito's cabinet, but they only verify the efficacy of the decision to drop the A-bomb, not whether it's a war crime. The only standard by which the decision can be judged are the intent of those not a periphery of the decision, but who actually made it, Marshall, Stimpson, and Truman being three of the definitive players off the top of my head. I just found an interesting link, http://www.sierratimes.com/03/06/26/gaddy.htm that quotes part of the targeting committee report, I just wished they had posted it in its entirety, though the sections posted, while maybe not the smoking gun I discussed with you in the past, definitely look like shell casings. I need to find out what was discussed with Truman, that in the final analysis determines if it was a war crime or a legitimate strategic decision.

It's like the decision to inter the Japanese-Americans. It boiled down to, I'd have to get my books out, four or six men in the final analysis (note, searching for free online access to 1944-45 headlines I found the name of one of the racist sods, General Dewitt, who helped spearhead not only the internment of the Japanese Americans, but the hate and fear mongering -http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/evactxt.html a good overview of what was done). Only one of that group, a government attorney, put up any fight for the rights of the Japanese-Americans, the others, especially DeWitt, frankly should have been charged with false imprisonment, etc. especially because he supplied manufactured evidence, which was used to push the government attorney into lukewarm support.

Molly, found an interesting link concerning the usefullness of precision daylight raids. http://ourstory.asia1.com.sg/war/lifeline/chanlast.html This provides a link that the B29's were attempting some precision bombing with some success, look at the section on the bombing of the dockyards in Singapore. However, in deference to Molly, they also indicate how much "collateral damage", or "oops, I killed a bunch of civilians" occured with those raids.

I'll have to visit my wife's school for the newspaper articles in 1945. I've just spent two hours looking for collections, and while I had read articles on this, I had not run into it head-on before. Nearly everything germane is by fee and/or subscription. Like my rain check to Ned - see the link above, it's ironic that Ned is talking about the efficacy of the A-bombs while I am now becoming suspicious of the warcrime nature of it - I am going to have to get back to this discussion. This should be easier, all I have to do is find a local public or college library with the appropriate subscription, I have access to three, and have snuck into a fourth in the past.

However, I have a suspicion, especially after viewing the newspaper archives over the internment, that I may not find a very complimentary picture of domestic sentiment. Hopefully I can find some letters to the editor, maybe providing some counterbalance to the editorial bias in the headlines (yes, I realize that in itself is controlled by the newspaper publishers, but it's the closest I can come to primary sources except for correspondence collections, and that I have neither the resources or the time for, sadly - or not so sadly, my little 10 month old girl is a joy ).

[Serb]

Just like Peter the Great and Ivan IV were. So?

[Saras]

Nothing. They're tyrants. Don't fall in love with them unconditionally.

[Hurricane]

And other great men like Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Pol Pot and of course Hitler.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb


I've spend about 40 minutes to find original text. It's not a complete quote, some parts are still missing.
Churchill about Stalin:
"He was an outstanding person impressing our severe time of the period in which his life elapsed. Stalin was a man of exceptional energy, erudition and unbending willpower, harsh, strict and relentless as in work, so in talk, whom even I, educated in English parliament, could not oppose in any way.... In his works gigantic strength was resounded. In Stalin this strength was so great that he seemed unique among the leaders of all times and peoples.... His influence on people was irresistible. When he entered the hall of the Yalta Conference, all of us stood up as if at someone's command. A strange thing is that we stood at attention. Stalin possessed profound, logical and intelligent wisdom devoid of any panic. He was a peerless master able to find, at a difficult moment, a way out of the most hopeless situation.... This was a man who destroyed his enemy with the hands of his enemies, and forced us, whom he openly called imperialists, to fight against imperialists.... He took over Russia with a wooden plough, but left it equipped with atomic weapons"

So, Sandman, you still think that Stalin was an imbecile and Churchill was lier?

Well, for my part I think that is very interesting. Who said those things?

[Serb]

How can I fall in love with them, if:
1) I'm not a gay.
2) They are all dead, long time ago.
3) I'm a married man.

Esli tebe popodetsya na glaza kniga "O zapade, kotoryi pyzhilsya, pyzhilsya, a Rossia sama po sebe", rekomenduyu prochest'. Eto ni kakaya nibud' ultra-patrioticheskaya huinya ili prokommunisticheskaya huinya, a normal'nyi analiz dvuh uchenyh o ciclichnosti razvitiya Rossii. Eta kniga ni k chemu ne prizyvaet, i nikogo ne opravdyvaet. Avtory tam v obshem dokazyvayut, chto drugogo puti vyzhit' prosto ne bylo i obyasnyaut chto proishodilo v poslednii neskolko desyatiletii i vse eshe proishodit seychas- ocherednoi etap relaksacii. Koroche recomenduyu, pro-rossiiskoi ili pro-kommunisticheskoi labudy tam net, eto nauchnoe issledovanie.

[notyoueither]

Ahhh, this is now a Russian drunk thread. I see. OK, have fun.

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Well, for my part I think that is very interesting. Who said those things?

Winston Churchill.
You know, former prime minister of GB.

[notyoueither]

Ermmmm, I don't think so. You are more versed with English than that... stuff you posted. That was not Churchill.

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Ahhh, this is now a Russian drunk thread. I see. OK, have fun.

Silly, it's day here, and I'm on my job. Do you think Russians drink at 13 o'clock?

[Saras]

S utra nevypil - den propal

I'll start a new thread on Russia.

[Serb]

What is that? A Lithuanian folk saying?

[Saras]

you know very well what that was