German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else?

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Ned
Molly, the Japanese were harsh on prisoners. Very harsh. But except for Nanking, I never heard of callous and wanton killing of men women and children by the Japanese.

I was shocked by what the Europeans did to each other in WWII. I thought that that was over -- forever -- then along come Milosevic.

There is something very wrong about Europe and I do not know that it has been fixed.

Erm... possibly the fact that we are human beings?

And human beings, while capable of some marvellous things, are also capable of great harm.

I'm not going to suggest that Europe is perfect.

I am going to suggest you've got your head up your behind if you really think one sort of human being is better than another.

I mean, what are the words... "We hold these truths to be self evident, all men are born equal" (or free or capitalist or Republican - can't remember).

Those sentiments look bloody silly compared to saying "we don't care about anywhere else but home".


As to the thread question, I would say NAZI (Not German) atrocities were systematic, and NONE of the other participants can claim they did not systematically kill civilians.

The French Resistance did. The Brits did (Dresden for sure). America dropped 2 atmoic bombs (as if the first one wasn't enough). Russia's final push into Germany has spawned many tales of horror.

And what about little old Italy's behaviour in East Africa, eh? WMD use - a hanging offence in today's world.

War is Hell, Ned. Don't you believe it's good. Sometimes it is necessary... but it is NEVER a picnic.

[Harovan]

Not that they were a good bunch of drinking buddies, but there was a difference between the Waffen (or fighting) SS and the camp guards, death squads, and the Gestapo.

Well... the lower ranks of the early Waffen SS were built out of volunteering camp guards, so at least there was no significant difference. The Gestapo was a completely different beast, though.

Unlike the ordinary Wehrmacht (which was infested by doubters), the Waffen SS consisted mainly of brainwashed volunteers. A part of it, mostly in the lesser ranks, were mere guards (thugs) from the Nazi prisons and concentration camps, who gladly volunteered for the idea to bring their "master race properties" eastward. Others were highly educated specialists (even some men of science and art, perverted by the ideology), who would never dirty themselves by laying hands on PoWs (which was the domain of the thugs). But they had one feature in common: they were absolute fanatics, following their leaders without doubts and questions. They had but 2 deities - Hitler and Himmler. And they were much better fed, equipped and armed than the ordinary soldiers. They were helt as elite troops, at least in the first years of the war. Among them were the most successful soldiers, such as the Panzer ace Michael Wittmann. And yes - the higher ranks (not the thugs, obviously) had some kind of "Code of Chivalry", at least towards people they considered as their likes. That list was pretty short, considering that a lot of them despised even the ordinary Wehrmacht.

There's a very good book giving insight in the way of thinking of a high ranked SS officer. It's Robert Merle's novel "Death is My Profession", describing the career of Rudolf Hoess (in the book named Rudolf Lang) from a Free Corps volunteer (post-WW1) up to the commander of the Auschwitz extermination camp. It's not about the Waffen SS, but anyway. Hoess is descriped as a man, who is doing his duty well by all means - no matter what it is, and not even asking. Who asks, is a doubter and there's no room for doubters inside the SS. He did what he was told - rational, efficient and without emotion. And not thinking about good or bad - The leadership ordered it and therefor it must be good. The conclusion of the book is - yes, Hoess did nothing but his duty - and exactly that made him a monster.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by notyoueither


You mean dropping Agent Orange on civilian populations was 'civilised'?

That is strange, I figured that most Euros agreed a long time ago that chemicals should not be used even on soldiers. Meanwhile some others thought it was good fun for the local populations.

The problem with throwing poo, Ned, is that there is plenty to go around for all the monkeys.

Let's get this one straight, we dropped napalm on citizens and agent orange on triple canopy forest and agent blue along the rivers.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Tingkai


What in the world are you talking about?

During WWII, the British did not slaughter/rape like the Germans did. The Brits never had concentration camps akin to the German ones. The Brits did not murder POWs like the Germans and Russians did. Brit soldiers did not commit mass rapes like Russian troops did in 45. The Brits did not murder civilians for political reasons liek the Germans and the Russians.

Your comparison of the Brits to the Germans and the Russians is simply stupid.

Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden....

Unless you consider burning thousands of non-combatants alive to fall short of an attrocity.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Sikander


Let's get this one straight, we dropped napalm on citizens and agent orange on triple canopy forest and agent blue along the rivers.

Never even heard of agent blue before... but I'll be the first to admit there's loads of things I don't know.

I also didn't think the US was that discriminate about what was dropped where in Indo China - plenty GI's dead from that crap too.

Give my regards to my Aunty down in Mork 'n Mindy town... and is the annual Bong Fest still going?

[Patroklos]

I assume you mean Soviets above? If that were the case yes we would nuke them to hell (as would all our nuclear allies). That is the major tenent of nuclear strategy, that there is no benefit to using them, one or 100, because it is suicide. That of course is why there was no WWIII and you and I are still alive.

While the Btits do not belong anywhere near the category of the Russians or Nazis, and I am not sure why the discusion went that way, it should be noted tha the British colonial troops had the WORST record in killing POWS (to include Canadians). They just never made it to the rear period. Even factoring the Russians in the Geramans treated the POWs number wise with care these groups. 1005 dead is bette than 505, though admittedly they hardly had as many POWs to worry about like the Germans. (No I don't have the source off the top of my head, nore am I inclided to do so until some of you decide to produce a sorce or two).

And though it is not on the level of genocide, I think the British went a little crazy on their bombing tactics. How exactly do you bomb a specific factory in the age of WWII at night, as that is when the British bombed? You don't. You blanket the city and hope you hit something valuable. Not exactly something to be proud of, especially since night raids like Dresden were in the last month of the war when it wasn't needed, and it had long been unecessary to bomb at night.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Well... the lower ranks of the early Waffen SS were built out of volunteering camp guards, so at least there was no significant difference. The Gestapo was a completely different beast, though.

Unlike the ordinary Wehrmacht (which was infested by doubters), the Waffen SS consisted mainly of brainwashed volunteers. A part of it, mostly in the lesser ranks, were mere guards (thugs) from the Nazi prisons and concentration camps, who gladly volunteered for the idea to bring their "master race properties" eastward. Others were highly educated specialists (even some men of science and art, perverted by the ideology), who would never dirty themselves by laying hands on PoWs (which was the domain of the thugs). But they had one feature in common: they were absolute fanatics, following their leaders without doubts and questions. They had but 2 deities - Hitler and Himmler. And they were much better fed, equipped and armed than the ordinary soldiers. They were helt as elite troops, at least in the first years of the war. Among them were the most successful soldiers, such as the Panzer ace Michael Wittmann. And yes - the higher ranks (not the thugs, obviously) had some kind of "Code of Chivalry", at least towards people they considered as their likes. That list was pretty short, considering that a lot of them despised even the ordinary Wehrmacht.

There's a very good book giving insight in the way of thinking of a high ranked SS officer. It's Robert Merle's novel "Death is My Profession", describing the career of Rudolf Hoess (in the book named Rudolf Lang) from a Free Corps volunteer (post-WW1) up to the commander of the Auschwitz extermination camp. It's not about the Waffen SS, but anyway. Hoess is descriped as a man, who is doing his duty well by all means - no matter what it is, and not even asking. Who asks, is a doubter and there's no room for doubters inside the SS. He did what he was told - rational, efficient and without emotion. And not thinking about good or bad - The leadership ordered it and therefor it must be good. The conclusion of the book is - yes, Hoess did nothing but his duty - and exactly that made him a monster.

A fair and accurate description of the Waffen SS alone would require a very long article. Suffice it to say that almost any generalizing comment will fall by the wayside as the war ground on, because the SS were always changing and expanding. The foreign formations for instance were a very large component of the Waffen SS, but obviously made up no part of the early units. By the end of the war many of the replacements to Waffen SS units were simple conscripts (usually very young) who did not sign up to be in the SS and wouldn't have met the criteria for an SS private at any time previously.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Cruddy


Never even heard of agent blue before... but I'll be the first to admit there's loads of things I don't know.

I also didn't think the US was that discriminate about what was dropped where in Indo China - plenty GI's dead from that crap too.

Give my regards to my Aunty down in Mork 'n Mindy town... and is the annual Bong Fest still going?

I guess I must have arrived here after the days of the bong fest, I haven't heard of it. Although in Boulder everyday is a bong fest to some extent. Btw, I used to live across the street from the Mork and Mindy house.

I learned about agent blue from a guy that used to work here. He did three tours in Vietnam, one in the advisor corps in the early 1960s. He got out and realized that the only safe place for him was back in Vietnam, as he was out of control violent and almost killed someone in a scuffle at work. He joined the Navy and became a SEAL. He was immersed in Agent Blue a lot of the time and has seen several of his buddies from that time die of cancer. He got wounded really bad on his third tour and the navy kept him on as a cook and bodyguard for the Captain (of whatever ship he was on) whenever he was ashore. He got himself back together mentally and retired after getting his 20 years pension.

[Kramerman]

look, i think i speak for everyone here when i say that America is by far the most brutal and attrocious state ever to exist.....ever...

[Patroklos]

The period of the SS where the guards and the fighting troops were the same people was well befor WWII.

When I get home from work, I will give you plenty of examples from from "Fall of Berlin" Tigkai.

Not that I have think you actually read it to make a coment like that. But I hardly see why I have to provide copious example contrary to what you say and you don't produce a thing. Honeslty, find me a competant WWII historian who states your view.

[Patroklos]

Go back a few pages, and you will note America is not on the list of the worlds Uber killers Kramerman, though there was a footnote that you are an idiot.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Patroklos
The period of the SS where the guards and the fighting troops were the same people was well befor WWII.

The SS had no fighting troops pre-war. The Waffen SS was founded, because with begin of the war a lot of SS men volunteered for the fighting troops and were by their codex not allowed to join the Wehrmacht. Mind you, that they were something better, or at least they thought so.

Sikander: Yes you are right and that's why I tried to emphasize the word "early" in my post.

[Kramerman]

i was being sarcastic... speaking of idiots...

[Drake Tungsten]

i was being sarcastic... speaking of idiots...

Bull****. I'm on to you, you commie scum...

[Kramerman]

well, i did come to the realization the other day that i am actually an environmentalist of some degree... it was a strange revelation, for I had always had myself pegged as one of those cold, hard, industrial, scrooge types. oh well.