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  • "Right" is such an arbitrary concept. Human beings are social animals. We define lots of rules so that one can relate to others and we can survive together as a society. Simply something exist for now does not make it right. There were one time in the history when black slaves did not have the right to their lives. There were countries where men has the right to have multiple wifes. There are people who may feel happy when he kills people and his right to pursue happiness is restricted in our current society.

    Human beings can have different beliefs. Different models of societies reflects different rules governing how people are related. Flaws in current practice of a society model does not mean it cannot get better and does not mean people who believe in the ideals of that model are wrong.
    Be good, and if at first you don't succeed, perhaps failure will be back in fashion soon. -- teh Spamski

    Grapefruit Garden

    Comment


    • Originally posted by chegitz guevara


      What gives you a right to live?
      Not you

      btw, I was wrong regarding ZIL's - I had in mind ZIM's. But zils were 5 ton, 35 liters of gas per 100 km monsters WITHOUT any bhp and torque, hardly "some of the best cars".

      And HARDLY a car a treehugging commie should support, given the gas mileage
      Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
      Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
      Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Saras
        Not you


        Wrong, I, and nearly three hundred million other Americans grant you the right to live, should you ever come to America, or should someone in America be trying to kill you. We will do our best to ensure that you are not killed here or by someone who is here. This is becaquse we feel that a society where people do not have to fear being killed is perferalbe to one where that is a constant worry. Nearly every society on Earth has prohibitions no murder for this very reason.

        btw, I was wrong regarding ZIL's - I had in mind ZIM's. But zils were 5 ton, 35 liters of gas per 100 km monsters WITHOUT any bhp and torque, hardly "some of the best cars".


        You're using a different measure than I was. ZILs are beautiful cars, well manufactured, and quite luxurious. Rolls Royces and such Western luxury vehicals are large and gas wasting, but I wouldn't say they are bad cars (except from an environmental stand point).
        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

        Comment


        • --"You're using a different measure than I was. ZILs are beautiful cars, well manufactured, and quite luxurious. Rolls Royces and such Western luxury vehicals are large and gas wasting, but I wouldn't say they are bad cars (except from an environmental stand point)."

          Would you buy a Rolls if you could afford one, or rather some racier stuff?

          --"Wrong, I, and nearly three hundred million other Americans grant you the right to live, should you ever come to America, or should someone in America be trying to kill you. We will do our best to ensure that you are not killed here or by someone who is here. This is becaquse we feel that a society where people do not have to fear being killed is perferalbe to one where that is a constant worry. Nearly every society on Earth has prohibitions no murder for this very reason."

          It's not a right then, it's a licence.
          Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
          Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
          Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kidicious


            I would love to use some white out on the Constitution. As far as the right to pursue happiness is concerned, its vague and useless. If you want to grant a right, make it clear.
            Unlike "social benefit" and "social cost".
            "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

            “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


              Unlike "social benefit" and "social cost".

              What?

              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

              Comment


              • Originally posted by chegitz guevara


                Actually I don't. I fully recognize that moral structures are human creations. The fact that a set of human relations is in existence doesn't presuppose it's naturalness. Slavery existed for a very long time, an people argued it was just, and natural, and moral. Today we see those arguments as FoS. Equally, the right to property in land, capital, etc., is no more no more natural than the right to property in humans.

                BTW, the DoI has no legal standing in the USA. The rights enshrined in that document have no legal valdity. The rights to life, liberty, and property, however, we assured in the 14th Amendment, and you may not be deprived of them except by due process of law. In other words, the government does not recognize them as absolute, nor do the citizens. We may take away your rights to life, liberty, and property in order to maximize the public good.
                And what are laws other than a codification of those morals. Are morals changeable, without doubt, are laws as well, no doubt. Given that morals are mutable then one must argue with the latest agreed upon set of moral standards are those codified in law (until the next change thereof). Hence the reason we speak of issues of law and not of morals.

                DoI is considered to be the underpinning of the constitution wherein the legal power of government is outlined. (Duh) Likewise, DoI has been used to frame arguements in courts and thereby has legal relevance.

                Agreed the 14th ammendment states these rights exist except as noted. The mere fact that they have been mentioned gives them credence and validity and are not to be infringed upon lightly.The paraphrasing you used to describe the limitation of these rights is not 100% correct unless of course you recognize the fact that preservation of these same rights is in the greater public good .

                I'll grant you Emminent Domain is one particularly nasty portion that speaks towards seizure of property for the greater good. (Unfortunately as a Libertarian I see huge huge abuses of this clause).
                "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


                  Unlike "social benefit" and "social cost".
                  Vague and useless. Two words you should know by heart.
                  "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                  “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


                    Vague and useless. Two words you should know by heart.
                    They are terms used in economics. Pursuit of happiness is not.
                    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                    Comment


                    • Let me see if I can find Social benefit and/or minimized Social cost as rights guaranteed.





                      Nope.
                      "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                      “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
                        Let me see if I can find Social benefit and/or minimized Social cost as rights guaranteed.
                        You've killed this thread with this nonsense.
                        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                        Comment


                        • Funny I thought communism nonsense simply adding to the inane.
                          "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                          “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Saras
                            Would you buy a Rolls if you could afford one, or rather some racier stuff?


                            Probably a Benz. I man was that a gorgeous car. $300K I could easily part with, if I had that kinda money to part with. So I have bourgeois tastes?

                            It's not a right then, it's a licence.


                            No, a license requires you to go to the government and ask for (and often pay for) it. Often it requires a test to make sure you understand the duties and obligations having a license requires.

                            A right is something you are granted at a specified time by the social group that is your context. You have a right to life in the U.S., but you don't have a right to vote because you are a foreign devil. You have a right to some forms of property, but not others (like drugs).
                            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
                              GePap

                              Two simple statements
                              1) Because as citizens we have no right to choose productions.
                              2) That is reserved for the property owners.


                              Any reason to think either of these two statements are not factual with respect to current US law.
                              Man-made fabrics vs hemp is a prime example of
                              1. The government stepping in to help a particular company gain control of a market by making a product illegal.

                              2. disregard of consumer demand on the part of the government and business.

                              The recent arguments over ephedra is another example of the consumer not being able to get what they want. Apparently ephedra is more harmful than cigarettes, alcohol, and tylenol.

                              On another note, Ned
                              I identify with the victims because I am an African American member of the military who has been to slums in NYC, Atlanta, Norfolk, Chattanooga, San Diego, Tijuana, San Juan, USVI, New London, Boston, Charleston, Bermuda, San Diego, UK, Holland, and etc. I have seen all manner of ills that a lot of people don't know exist. This poverty is not limited to the cities.

                              A lot of Americans(U.S.) say that the U.S.A. is the best place to live on Earth and that other countries and people are jealous of us. I am inclined to agree with this statement. Would you not I agree that if the reason that countries like the U.S.A., U.K, and France are so rich comes from slave labor, forcing other countries to buy harmful drugs from them, supporting dictators, controlling other countries resources, would'nt you agree that all these things invite bitterness and repercussions. If you found that the reason you were poor and your wife starving was because someone has stolen and continues to hold something that is rightfully yours what would you do?

                              In a play by George Bernard Shaw, one of the characters stated that all Great Britain had to do stay the most powerful country is maintain the status quo. My point is that the status quo as it stands is not a fair one and I see communism, socialism, fascism, even racism as and attempt to balance this. As it is Democratic Capitalist market society does not work, Neither does communism, fascism, or socialism. All for the same reasons. They don't look out for the citizens.
                              What can make a nigga wanna fight a whole night club/Figure that he ought to maybe be a pimp simply 'cause he don't like love/What can make a nigga wanna achy, break all rules/In a book when it took a lot to get you hooked up to this volume/
                              What can make a nigga wanna loose all faith in/Anything that he can't feel through his chest wit sensation

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Pax Africanus


                                Man-made fabrics vs hemp is a prime example of
                                1. The government stepping in to help a particular company gain control of a market by making a product illegal.

                                2. disregard of consumer demand on the part of the government and business.

                                The recent arguments over ephedra is another example of the consumer not being able to get what they want. Apparently ephedra is more harmful than cigarettes, alcohol, and tylenol.

                                On another note, Ned
                                I identify with the victims because I am an African American member of the military who has been to slums in NYC, Atlanta, Norfolk, Chattanooga, San Diego, Tijuana, San Juan, USVI, New London, Boston, Charleston, Bermuda, San Diego, UK, Holland, and etc. I have seen all manner of ills that a lot of people don't know exist. This poverty is not limited to the cities.

                                A lot of Americans(U.S.) say that the U.S.A. is the best place to live on Earth and that other countries and people are jealous of us. I am inclined to agree with this statement. Would you not I agree that if the reason that countries like the U.S.A., U.K, and France are so rich comes from slave labor, forcing other countries to buy harmful drugs from them, supporting dictators, controlling other countries resources, would'nt you agree that all these things invite bitterness and repercussions. If you found that the reason you were poor and your wife starving was because someone has stolen and continues to hold something that is rightfully yours what would you do?

                                In a play by George Bernard Shaw, one of the characters stated that all Great Britain had to do stay the most powerful country is maintain the status quo. My point is that the status quo as it stands is not a fair one and I see communism, socialism, fascism, even racism as and attempt to balance this. As it is Democratic Capitalist market society does not work, Neither does communism, fascism, or socialism. All for the same reasons. They don't look out for the citizens.
                                A good post, Pax.

                                One small thing I would like to point out tho'. I was not argueing in that 2nd particular passage that consumer demand chose productions. More to the point consumer demand incents property owners (owners of means of production). They then choose the productions. And yes I will allow that government does have the ability to infringe on this right.

                                Your last 3 sentences are compelling. And in each situation the resounding claim from each of the above will be the same. "That's not true _________ at work." or "There never has been a true form of _____________."
                                "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                                “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                                Comment

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