Darwinism Extinct

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Haha, he is proven wrong. Again.

Polio virus created from scratch.

Read and weep, Moti.

Technically, a virus isn't alive

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by skywalker
Technically, a virus isn't alive

About half the scientific community would disagree. It's kind of an ongoing debate, you know.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by skywalker
Technically, a virus isn't alive

It is.

Only life reproduces.

[Kuciwalker]

According to my AP Biology book, it isn't so there

[BustaMike]

I still never got an answer about the 5000 year old Del Taco. Del Taco has always existed just like the nukes have always existed :.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by skywalker


Nope, it's still a tautology (not in a bad way, merely in the sense that it's a priori, or at least doesn't require a postiori knowledge). It is simply that statistically, those organisms that are best suited to survive and reproduce in an environment will survive and reproduce more successfully than those who aren't.

First of all, I'm afraid I disagree one more time. Please, believe me, it's not personal, even if this is the third time in a row I disagree with you. I'll try to post the next time I agree with you, so you can check it's not personal

Second, I perfectly understand that you are not a creationist and that you are not against darwinism

IMHO, the term statistically it what makes it science. You know, I can test if this true or not! I can test whether the better adapted being of a species (in both sexually and evoirement sense) make more offspring - or not. There are times the better adapeted beign doesn't survive (for instance, he dies by an accident) , so it's not a tautology because there are times where the best adpated being doesn't survive.

But the arguments in deep (and in much better english) can also be found there:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/tautology.html

Let me quote the site

The simple version of the so-called 'tautology argument' is this:

Natural selection is the survival of the fittest. The fittest are those that survive. Therefore, evolution by natural selection is a tautology (a circular definition).

The real significance of this argument is not the argument itself, but that it was taken seriously by any professional philosophers at all. 'Fitness' to Darwin meant not those that survive, but those that could be expected to survive because of their adaptations and functional efficiency, when compared to others in the population. This is not a tautology, or, if it is, then so is the Newtonian equation F=ma [Sober 1984, chapter 2], which is the basis for a lot of ordinary physical explanation.

The phrase 'survival of the fittest' was not even Darwin's. It was urged on him by Wallace, the codiscoverer of natural selection, who hated 'natural selection' because he thought it implied that something was doing the selecting. Darwin coined the term 'natural selection' because had made an analogy with 'artificial selection' as done by breeders, an analogy Wallace hadn't made when he developed his version of the theory. The phrase 'survival of the fittest' was originally due to Herbert Spencer some years before the Origin .

However, there is another, more sophisticated version, due mainly to Karl Popper [1976: sect. 37]. According to Popper, any situation where species exist is compatible with Darwinian explanation, because if those species were not adapted, they would not exist. That is, Popper says, we define adaptation as that which is sufficient for existence in a given environment. Therefore, since nothing is ruled out, the theory has no explanatory power, for everything is ruled in.

This is not true, as a number of critics of Popper have observed since (eg, Stamos [1996] [note 1]). Darwinian theory rules out quite a lot. It rules out the existence of inefficient organisms when more efficient organisms are about. It rules out change that is theoretically impossible (according to the laws of genetics, ontogeny, and molecular biology) to achieve in gradual and adaptive steps (see Dawkins [1996]). It rules out new species being established without ancestral species.

All of these hypotheses are more or less testable, and conform to the standards of science. The answer to this version of the argument is the same as to the simplistic version - adaptation is not just defined in terms of what survives. There needs to be a causal story available to make sense of adaptation (which is why mimicry in butterflies was such a focal debate in the teens and twenties). Adaptation is a functional notion, not a logical or semantic a priori definition, despite what Popper thought.

The current understanding of fitness is dispositional. That is to say, fitness is a disposition of a trait to reproduce better than competitors. It is not deterministic. If two twins are identical genetically, and therefore are equally fit, there is no guarantee that they will both survive to have equal numbers of offspring. Fitness is a statistical property. What 'owns' the fitness isn't the organism, but the genes. They will tend to be more often transmitted insofar as what they deliver is better 'engineered' to the needs of the organisms in the environment in which they live. And you can determine that, within limits, by 'reverse engineering' the traits to see how they work [Dennett 1995: chapter 8].

Moreover, fitness exists over and above the properties of the individual organisms themselves. There are three debated ways to construe this. Fitness can be a relation of genes to other genes. Fitness can be a supervenient property - that is, it can be a property of very different physical structures (of ants, aardvarks and artichokes) [Sober 1984]. Or fitness can be seen as an emergent property, a property of systems of a certain complexity and dynamics [Depew and Weber 1995]. Whether fitness is a genetic, organismic or system property is a hot topic in modern philosophy of biology. I think the system interpretation is the way to approach it [Weber and Depew 1996, Depew and Weber 1995].

Sorry for the long post.

And it's again my humble opinion

[DaShi]

Originally posted by skywalker
According to my AP Biology book, it isn't so there

Well, there is some debate. To say that it is alive because it reproduces is simple and inaccurate since viruses need another organism to reproduce. You could say that sneakers are alive under that requirement. If people buy sneakers, the company will make more sneakers and thus reproduce using humans. Of course, given the state my sneakers are in you could almost claim that they are alive.

[yaroslav]

what about the tapeworm? Do you believe it is live? It needs the human body to reproduce, but I don't believe you're going to say it's not live

I know. There can be an interesting debate about hat

[DaShi]

Well, I didn't that something that needs another organism to reproduce isn't alive. Just that that isn't a good requirement.

Yes, you can and people have debated hours over this. I won't, however.