France bans religious symbols in schools and hospitals.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor
While I think the move was quite extreme at school, I strongly agree with the hospital part. When Muslim women (but you could say submitted women, which would be more accurate) have to wear scarves during a consultation, when the husband is the one who talks as her wife gets examinated even by a gynecologist, when Muslim groups demand that there are men-only and women-only areas etc...

I think it is a time to say "stop". There's a time where we cannot agree with such displays of "religiosity" as they go so against our values of liberty, equality and fraternity. The ban in hospoitals is completely about the submission of women to their husband. I'm very, very glad we oppose it without any concession.

Saint Marcus:
You'd be interested by this thread, where we discussed the issue at length, although it was no poll.
You may find information that you don't know as of yet.

why not kick the guy out during a gynecologist consultation. there's no need to BAN CLOTHING to achieve any of the aims u mentioned.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Probably.
You know what? If a teacher professes atheist beliefs, or if a pupil wears an "ostensible" sign stating his atheism, he'd fall to the law exactly as a teacher explaining the superiority of Jesus, or a Scarved girl.

Religion is supposed to be silenced at school according to the French value of laïcité. Not denied.

can I wear a tony robbins t shirt?

I thot of his last name

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by paiktis22
How many muslims are there in France?

Supposedly about 5 millions on a pop of 60 mil.
I'd like to point out that many Muslims are non-observants, njust like many catholics are. The number of veiled girls at school is very small (something like 1000 a year), and this would be a non-issue if the French were not so easy to tickle with the whole issue of religion at school.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yavoon
why not kick the guy out during a gynecologist consultation. there's no need to BAN CLOTHING to achieve any of the aims u mentioned.

Because clothing is one aspect in a more general problem. Besides, I never heard that hospital patients would be banned of wearing scarves. I heard however that hospital patients would have to accept the hospital's conditions whenever they are opposite to their religious teachings.
This comes from the pressure of the newly formed oragnization of French Muslims, who strongly intends to have Muslim practices enter the law. I heard of the specific clothing issues only when it comes to school.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Because clothing is one aspect in a more general problem. Besides, I never heard that hospital patients would be banned of wearing scarves. I heard however that hospital patients would have to accept the hospital's conditions whenever they are opposite to their religious teachings.
This comes from the pressure of the newly formed oragnization of French Muslims, who strongly intends to have Muslim practices enter the law. I heard of the specific clothing issues only when it comes to school.

yah but I dont think the general problem is the gynecologist. I think its that france dislikes islam and it feels threataned by the muslim community.

as I said before, none of ur complaints require clothing to be banned to address them.

[Bereta_Eder]

And are those 5 million French citizens?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yavoon
I think its that france dislikes islam and it feels threataned by the muslim community.

France has gotten along with Islam quite fine until recent years, and most opposition to Arabs was racist rather than anti-religious.

The fact that the muslim community organized itself, and now demands that some of the old 'Muslim' oppression to women makes it to law, as a token of 'tolerance' for their belief is what is wrong. We have struggled for decades to get out of the grasp of the Catholic Church, that's not to enter the clutches of Muslim obscurantists.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

France has gotten along with Islam quite fine until recent years, and most opposition to Arabs was racist rather than anti-religious.

The fact that the muslim community organized itself, and now demands that some of the old 'Muslim' oppression to women makes it to law, as a token of 'tolerance' for their belief is what is wrong. We have struggled for decades to get out of the grasp of the Catholic Church, that's not to enter the clutches of Muslim obscurantists.

so this is all political backlash at islam becoming organized? interestyng. while that is certainly believable. fundamentalism islam is a deplorable set of beliefs. I would say then that u r being practical and trying to suppress their religion and not idealogical.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by paiktis22
And are those 5 million French citizens?

A great many of them. I'd like to point out that many Muslim French citizens have been born in France, but haven't been integrated properly.

For a long time, counter-culture (which was much more concerned with worldly issues than spiritual ones) and crime was the treand for those alienated people. But since latest years, there seems to be a fashion of Muslim zaelotry. I wouldn't be surprised if the Wahhabists have profited from the dismayed situation of many young 'Muslim' people in France.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Spiffor

France has gotten along with Islam quite fine until recent years, and most opposition to Arabs was racist rather than anti-religious.

The fact that the muslim community organized itself, and now demands that some of the old 'Muslim' oppression to women makes it to law, as a token of 'tolerance' for their belief is what is wrong. We have struggled for decades to get out of the grasp of the Catholic Church, that's not to enter the clutches of Muslim obscurantists.

Concurred.

[Mazarin]

Originally posted by yavoon

yah but I dont think the general problem is the gynecologist. I think its that france dislikes islam and it feels threataned by the muslim community.

as I said before, none of ur complaints require clothing to be banned to address them.

They surely feel threatened by the extremists who submiss women, who beat up muslim girls that are not clothed "approprietly", who beat up doctors because they "touched" "their" women. No free society can accept this.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yavoon
so this is all political backlash at islam becoming organized? interestyng.

Islam became organized only recently (2 years ago or so), as the right-wing government tried to build a one discussing partner for Islam, similar to the representative institutions of the Christians and Jews.

But it wasn't planned that the traditionnalists would get so much weigh in it. And ever since this institution opened its mouth, it was reclaiming the application of some Muslim obscurantist dogma in the law.

If you're interested in petty politics, you may be interested by the fact that the moderate leader of Paris' mosque became leader of the Institution, despite his list having lost the election by a clear margin.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Mazarin

They surely feel threatened by the extremists who submiss women, who beat up muslim girls that are not clothed "approprietly", who beat up doctors because they "touched" "their" women. No free society can accept this.

I completely agree, all those ppl should be arrested.

but I dont agree that u should remove freedoms of other ppl. removing everyone's freedoms is an extreme reaction, done so out of survival instinct of those in power. I don't believe this is the case and that mere vigilance and criminal laws is all that is warranted.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I strongly agree with the hospital part. When Muslim women (but you could say submitted women, which would be more accurate) have to wear scarves during a consultation

How is allowing the woman to wear the scarf hinder examinations?

[Bereta_Eder]

They can't see their ears.



But really in the matter of: Muslims want to have their oppresive aspects of their culture entered into French law?

No way hose.