US Criticises French Headscarf Ban

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

The reasons why the French views of separation of Church and State are so different with the US' (or of most other European countries' for that matter) comes from this history specific to us.

OK, fine. And the reasons we have a different view of the death penalty than y'all do has to do with history specific to the US - now could y'all STFU about it and allow the US as a fellow democracy to run OUR justice system as we see fit, without attempting to prevent extradition of fugitives, etc?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
yeah, but is wearing a head scarf proselytism?

Every clearly seeable religious symbol (what was called "ostentatoire" before, and is called "ostensible" now, don't ask me for the nuance) is a statement of someone's religious belonging, and thus of someone's belief that his religion is the true one.
Even if the wearer of the scarf/kippa doesn't intend to do so, this statement is made by his garment.

Now, there is more to the scarf than the religious debate about it. One of the reasons to wear the scarf is religion, however, it's not the only one.
Teenage Crisis is another good one, and the two girls who started this year's round of headaches have been raised in an atheistic Jewish household, for example.
Another very existing reason in the ghettoes has to do with the vomitingly machist culture among the alienated youth. For a great many people, a girl is either a slut or someone who'll remain virgin until marriage. For many girls, the Scarf is a way to protect herself from the boys, a permanent reminder she's not a slut. This is awkwardly similar to the reasons why the Scarf was a progress during the dark ages

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
OK, fine. And the reasons we have a different view of the death penalty than y'all do has to do with history specific to the US - now could y'all STFU about it and allow the US as a fellow democracy to run OUR justice system as we see fit, without attempting to prevent extradition of fugitives, etc?

Why should we? Seeing you're whining about the head scarf, I fail to see why we should stop whining about the death penalty

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Why should we? Seeing you're whining about the head scarf, I fail to see why we should stop whining about the death penalty

You dont understand what "Ok, fine" means?

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I understand that some muslims dont require the wearing of the headscarf, and some muslims who do believe in the superiority of Sharia over civil law. Arent there SOME muslims who believe in civil law, but who also believe in the obligation to wear the headscarf?

Republican atheists are prepared to accept one Islam, as a clearly defined religion, accepting the rule of the civil laws. That implies a definition by muslim authorities of what this religion consists of. If there are several Islams, as there are several Christian religions, each must build its own clear and complete definition, and if one of them includes the primacy of the religious laws, it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Every clearly seeable religious symbol (what was called "ostentatoire" before, and is called "ostensible" now, don't ask me for the nuance) is a statement of someone's religious belonging, and thus of someone's belief that his religion is the true one.
Even if the wearer of the scarf/kippa doesn't intend to do so, this statement is made by his garment.

So if a Jewish or muslim kid refuses to eat pork, thats an assertion of the truth of his religion? (BTW, where i live the school cafeterias highlight foods that have pork, for the benefit of those who dont eat it, which helps Princess of the Mark)

Also many jews and muslims require girls to wear long sleeves as a religious obligation of modesty - is that to be banned too? Or is that acceptable because christians and atheists wear long sleeves, but not headscarves.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


Republican atheists are prepared to accept one Islam, as a clearly defined religion, accepting the rule of the civil laws. That implies a definition by muslim authorities of what this religion consists of. If there are several Islams, as there are several Christian religions, each must build its own clear and complete definition, and if one of them includes the primacy of the religious laws, it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

what if islam is not organized into formal sects the way christianity is?

[DanS]

If there are several Islams, as there are several Christian religions, each must build its own clear and complete definition, and if one of them includes the primacy of the religious laws, it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

This sounds very authoritarian to American ears. The government is unable to authorize such stuff. It's none of the government's goddamn business.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
So if a Jewish or muslim kid refuses to eat pork, thats an assertion of the truth of his religion? (BTW, where i live the school cafeterias highlight foods that have pork, for the benefit of those who dont eat it, which helps Princess of the Mark)

It is different, because it is not a permanent assertion of his religious belonging, that can be seen and understood by anybody at school.

Now, if the kid wore a T-shirt where it's clearly written "I don't eat pork cause I am Muslim/Jewish", that T-shirt would be banned.

Something of no small importance, that gets widely overlooked, is that any obvious sign of political belonging gets banned as well.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


, it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

It will not be authorized - geepers kreepers, thats the key isnt it, what some bureaucrat authorizes or doesnt? If i were you, Id be more concerned with how to actually integrate 5 million French muslims into society, including most especially those who are now adopting more conservative forms of Islam. And I doubt very much that pushing them out of the public schools is the way to accomplish that.

[DanS]

What is the difference between the beliefs that are expressed by day-to-day fashion and those expressed by a headscarf? Are goths excluded from wearing goth clothes in French schools? Do these kids wear uniforms?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

It is different, because it is not a permanent assertion of his religious belonging, that can be seen and understood by anybody at school.

Now, if the kid wore a T-shirt where it's clearly written "I don't eat pork cause I am Muslim/Jewish", that T-shirt would be banned.

Something of no small importance, that gets widely overlooked, is that any obvious sign of political belonging gets banned as well.

what if somebody asks my kid why she doesnt eat pork, and she says cause shes jewish? And in fact what if everybody at school understands that most people who dont eat pork refrain for religious reasons? OTOH, what if some ignorant people think that people who wear headscarves are NOT doing it for religious reasons, but to keep warm, or because theyve lost their hair due to chemotherapy - does that mean since its NOT universally understood its acceptable?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
What is the difference between the beliefs that are expressed by day-to-day fashion and those expressed by a headscarf? Are goths excluded from wearing goth clothes in French schools? Do these kids wear uniforms?

Goths aren't excluded from wearing their clothes. However, the scarf debate revived the long-dead idea of school uniforms, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility we use school uniforms in the distant future.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


what if islam is not organized into formal sects the way christianity is?

Interesting question, because it is the case.

The state asked the community interested to organize a representative body empowered to handle all relations with him.

This was recently done for the Islam, and we expect it to contribute to a significant improvement in the reciprocal understanding between muslims and non-muslims (who have already reach that point).

[lord of the mark]

yeah like you did long ago for the Jews, with the result that when some (liberal) friends of mine went to Paris they had trouble finding a Synagogue that they felt comfortable with (IE one where men and women had equal roles) Its a little better in UK,IIUC, but not all that much.