US Criticises French Headscarf Ban

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
Lord of the Mark, I think there is little doubt that the French are motivated by a reaction to the Muslim community and want to keep Muslim practices if not the Muslim themselves away from everyone else.

(sorry, I'm drunk and in a rush)
The French polical community is divided about that. To say things are uniformed is an uninformed thought.

1) "Keeping Muslims and other people separate" has strongly to do with local politics, as the cities are responsible for the geographic allocation of people. For a long time, cities tried to concentrate Arab populations in specific quarters, and middle-class (generally white) populations in others. Things are changing slowly, but right-wing mayors are very reluctant in mixing populations, given than many a right-wing voter would hate feeling surrounded by Arabs (quite a few middle-class Left-wingers would as well, but they're not vocal about it)

2) There is a dispute at the top of the State between Chirac and his popular rival, police minister Nicolas Sarkozy. Chirac wants to keep the 3rd Republic model of integration/assimilation of the migrant populations, that worked so well for our Italians and our Poles.
Sarkozy, OTOH, would favor an American-inspired model that figure affirmative action, NO new law about the Scarf, and a clear representation (rather than a melting) of communities.

The fact that Davout and I agree on Chirac's position doesn't mean there is a consensus in the French opinion.

[LDiCesare]

as long as they are doing so without provocation and intimidation of others in the society

The wearing of scarves is viewed as a provocation and intimidation, and that's the whole point. The reasoning is the following: Allowing scarves to be worn at school means that girls who don't wear it will be discriminated against, seen as sluts, and hassled. Wearing a headscarf can be done in because of intimidation. This may be exaggerated, or maybe not. The point is that there's a difference between scarves. An aunt of my wife is muslim and wears headscarves which are not ostentatious. She respects her religion and noone would complain if a girl wore something like this at school. When a girl refuses to go to the swimming pool and learn to swim because of her religion, she is actually acting against the law. This behaviour is also a reason why these scarves are banned.

As a side matter, I don't understand how americans can pretend they promote freedom of religion when they say 'God bless America' in official statements. As an atheist, this would hurt me a lot if I was American, as I couldn't utter a statement like that. It'd be against my religous beliefs.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ned


The only difference between the two is degree.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The only difference between the two is degree.

Yeah and the only difference between killing someone because they slept with your spouse and being Stalin is a matter of degree .

[KrazyHorse]

Proper usage: the only difference between Fez and Ned is one of degree

Improper usage: the only difference between Hitler and GWB is one of degree

[Imran Siddiqui]

The wearing of scarves is viewed as a provocation and intimidation

Only in France.

I don't understand how americans can pretend they promote freedom of religion when they say 'God bless America' in official statements.

Um... that's part of freedom of religion. Why should I tell the President he can't express his religious beliefs? It's his speech, he has the freedom to say his belief. Freedom of religion.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by LDiCesare

As a side matter, I don't understand how americans can pretend they promote freedom of religion when they say 'God bless America' in official statements. As an atheist, this would hurt me a lot if I was American, as I couldn't utter a statement like that. It'd be against my religous beliefs.

Not every statement by an official is an official statement. Official documents dont state that. Individual pols can say that, just as they can proclaim their atheism if they so choose.

[Whoha]

Hey, we ban Muslim women from wearing a headscarf while getting a drivers license, who are we to judge:P?

by the way, no school girls vs France jokes in the entire thread?

[Bereta_Eder]

What happens in the US?
Do muslim girls come with whatever they want?

I don't have a fixed opinion on the subject, but I think, not a conviction or anything, that freedom is the best. Anyone comes as he/she wants in school.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

(2) There is a dispute at the top of the State between Chirac and his popular rival, police minister Nicolas Sarkozy. Chirac wants to keep the 3rd Republic model of integration/assimilation of the migrant populations, that worked so well for our Italians and our Poles.
Sarkozy, OTOH, would favor an American-inspired model that figure affirmative action, NO new law about the Scarf, and a clear representation (rather than a melting) of communities.

.

First of all i dont see affirmative action and seperate representation as necessarily ideal - we tend to distinguish here between ethnic assimilation and religious assimilation. Which would lead to distinguishing between assimilating Italians, Poles and even North africans, and muslims per se.

BTW, why do you suppose so many more Italians went to the US than to France, despite proximity of France, closer language, and relatively high French wages (lower than US, but still high by european standards throughout 19th and early 20th c)

[Sandman]

I can't really see this as justified unless as part of a school uniform. School uniforms are a good idea, though.

I don't know why some of the American posters seem to believe that the death penalty is something Europeans 'whine' about. Most Europeans are probably in favour of it. And a good portion of American states don't use it.

[DanS]

Do muslim girls come with whatever they want?

For public schools, I think so. However, I guess there's an appropriateness dress code for physical education class, for instance.

[Bereta_Eder]

It's interesting that the US isn't "afraid" of being completely free and on the one hand allowing religious freedom and on the other not feeling "threatened" by it.

personal freedoms at its max. The best way IMHO, if possible.

[Imran Siddiqui]

we ban Muslim women from wearing a headscarf while getting a drivers license, who are we to judge

No we don't. We only ban a total facial covering. Women can wear the headscarf in driver's license pictures, as it shows their entire face.

[Ned]

Spiffor, thanks for your thoughtful reply (Krazy Horse can learn something from you.) It does appear there is a significant amount of (right-wing?) resistance to Muslims in France and this issue with the scarves flows directly from it.

Chirac is not trying to get the French to accept the Muslims, he is trying to get the Muslims to become French - and until they do - they can stay in their ghettos.

Well, we all know where that led to in Yugoslavia and in Germany before that.