Taram!!! The new Europe.

[Harovan]

I don't see how a core union is a mistake. Nobody is forced in, and nobody is forced out, except Turkey of course . If it "destroys the whole Union" by excluding the notorious slowers and blockers, fine. Better to have a smaller union earlier, that a large one never. Countries that decide not to be a part of it have plenty other options. They could form their own union, join an existing one (hello NAFTA) or remain single economies/political entities. Let everyone do what fits his interest. You don't want our opinion to be forced upon you? Fine and more power to you . But neither do we want yours to be forced upon us. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

What I really would like to know is, why certain people from overseas continue to ***** and whine, although the opinion of the United States in terms of European integration is just as important as the opinion of Belize and Sri Lanka. I don't see their point. May be it hurts to lose influence. Yes, that must be it. Get used to it.

What concerns Chiracs diplomatic masterpieces, well, he's a jackass and we know this, just like most Americans know that Bush is a nutjob. Politicians come and go.

[Bereta_Eder]

Spain's and Italy's interests lay with core Europe. And this will be demonstrated soon enough IMO. The Baltics too. Basically only two countries will eventually remain out of the core: the UK and Denmark. I also think that when Bulgaria and Romania enter they will join us in the core. From the Balkans already Greece and Slovenia are for the core.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I don't see how a core union is a mistake. Nobody is forced in, and nobody is forced out, except Turkey of course . If it "destroys the whole Union" by excluding the notorious slowers and blockers, fine.

Excuse me? Are you saying Ireland, Spain, Italy, Sweden and Finland are notorious slowers or blockers? AFAIK Its actually France, Germany and Greece that cant hold up to their commitments. Frances and Germanys hyporcisy is becoming a real nuisance.

The Core Europe is mainly Frances and Germanys attemp to arrogantly refuse to play by the common rules and respect the soveigrenity of other members. Their goals are simply not for the good of the Union.
If they really want economically stable Europe, they would accecpt the sanctions, instead of whining and blocking them.
If they really want militarily competemt Union, they would get out of NATO, instead of binding every member state to join it. (practicly, most memberstates are part of NATO already. Finnish army for example is 100% NATO compliant, trains with NATO, works with NATO abroad, has NATO training courses etc.)
Afterall why would they want to split the Union, just because the others dont want to spend their money on weapons and other meaningless equipment? Stupidest idea ever.

Better to have a smaller union earlier, that a large one never. Countries that decide not to be a part of it have plenty other options. They could form their own union, join an existing one (hello NAFTA) or remain single economies/political entities.

So why dont you just throw everyone that doesnt agree with you out of the Union? You sound like GWBs "Either you're with us, or against us"

Let everyone do what fits his interest. You don't want our opinion to be forced upon you? Fine and more power to you . But neither do we want yours to be forced upon us. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

Do you know what Union means? Have you ever heard the word 'consensus'?
You're Core Union is soo 80ties. Why dont you call it the Paris-Berlin Pact? We could me the New Warsaw Pact if you like

What concerns Chiracs diplomatic masterpieces, well, he's a jackass and we know this, just like most Americans know that Bush is a nutjob. Politicians come and go.

I agree Chirac is a criminal and a jackass, but so is Berlusconi. So why isnt he included to your core too?

[laurentius]

Core Union is simply Franco-German attempt to hijack total control of the EU

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I only have one question. Is Greece, France's and Germany's *****? If so, why do they continue to lick their collective ass's. Do the French and Germans have something really dirty on the Greeks..

Well the Germans have always wanted a "place in the sun". The Greeks they just love the €€€€.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Azazel
don't listen to EiF, he's a tory.

They still have those?

Put him in a preserve...

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by laurentius
Frances and Germanys hyporcisy is becoming a real nuisance.

Amen. Not to mention their condescendence. Countries are either "progressive" or "nationalistic dinosaurs bent on destroying Europe". IMO things are slightly more nuanced than that.
As if France and Germany aren't looking after their own national interests just as much as UK and Denmark. Their agenda is so badly hidden it's not even funny.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by laurentius
Excuse me? Are you saying Ireland, Spain, Italy, Sweden and Finland are notorious slowers or blockers? AFAIK Its actually France, Germany and Greece that cant hold up to their commitments. Frances and Germanys hyporcisy is becoming a real nuisance.

I'm sorry to hear about your feelings. You should be glad that you can get rid of this nuisance.

The Core Europe is mainly Frances and Germanys attemp to arrogantly refuse to play by the common rules and respect the soveigrenity of other members.

"Integration" is about losing sovereignty. We accept this. If you can't, more power to you.

Their goals are simply not for the good of the Union. If they really want economically stable Europe, they would accecpt the sanctions, instead of whining and blocking them.

True, pacta sunt servanda, although the influence of the stability pact on an economically stable Europe is rather questionable. It was mainly introduced to appease the German population and to raise their acceptance for the Euro, which was near to zero at a point. Some people had a hard time to accept a monetary union with currencies like the Italian Lira and the Greek Drachma, which seemed to be devaluated at will, if you have such a stable over decades currency like the German Mark. That this pact, which basically was imposed on the other countries, now can't be honored by Germany itself, is a rather shameful chapter for our current government. But despite this fact, Germany still doesn't live on the expense of others and her role as biggest net payer within the EU remains.

If they really want militarily competemt Union, they would get out of NATO, instead of binding every member state to join it. (practicly, most memberstates are part of NATO already. Finnish army for example is 100% NATO compliant, trains with NATO, works with NATO abroad, has NATO training courses etc.)
Afterall why would they want to split the Union, just because the others dont want to spend their money on weapons and other meaningless equipment? Stupidest idea ever.

Agreed, the NATO should be dissolved and Europe should get own armed forces without foreign influence. But I fail to see the point in your rant. Aren't all armies of NATO states (maybe except for the newer members) 100% NATO compiliant and share nearly the same equipment?

So why dont you just throw everyone that doesnt agree with you out of the Union?

Reminds me of "Why don't we throw all communists out of helicopters".

You sound like GWBs "Either you're with us, or against us"

We're telling you: You're welcome to follow us if you want. That's hardly antagonizing you. Certainly the cooperation on the existing level will continue, core Europe or not. But I fail to see how you can forbid certain countries to tighten their bonds only because you don't want to be a part of it.

Do you know what Union means? Have you ever heard the word 'consensus'?

Thanks for calling me dumb. The word consensus implies the will for a compromise. I don't see this will, on neither side. So who is to blame?

You're Core Union is soo 80ties. Why dont you call it the Paris-Berlin Pact? We could me the New Warsaw Pact if you like

Nice troll.

I agree Chirac is a criminal and a jackass, but so is Berlusconi. So why isnt he included to your core too?

Having criminals and jackasses as leaders does not qualify a country for core Europe, or else Italy, Spain, the UK and even the USA would be premium members.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


"Integration" is about losing sovereignty. We accept this. If you can't, more power to you.

We're telling you You're welcome to follow us if you want. That's hardly antagonizing you. Certainly the cooperation on the existing level will continue, core Europe or not. But I fail to see how you can forbid certain countries to tighten their bonds only because you don't want to be a part of it.

So Germany and France are "we" now and everyone that disagrees is "them". Nice. And it appears that "they" should follow the "we". Because after all EU is really a Franco-German alliance, so if you don't like it, get out.

That's a bit of a stretch, but your choice of words just begge for it

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Saras
So Germany and France are "we" now and everyone that disagrees is "them". Nice. And it appears that "they" should follow the "we". Because after all EU is really a Franco-German alliance, so if you don't like it, get out.

That's a bit of a stretch, but your choice of words just begge for it

I happen to be from Germany and therefor will say "we" if I mean the Germans. You are free to interpret into this whatever you want.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


I happen to be from Germany and therefor will say "we" if I mean the Germans. You are free to interpret into this whatever you want.

So "we" meant Germany and not EU? wheeww.

Then again, why should "they" follow "we"? Maybe "you" should follow "us"

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
"Integration" is about losing sovereignty. We accept this. If you can't, more power to you.

If France and Germany want to unify into a single country - go ahead. That doesn't mean everyone else has to join in too. If it works they may want to. When it fails the rest of us won't have had to go through a painful and expensive experience.

I've never been able to decide whether Germany is still trying to make up for the last 2 wars or is trying to take over Europe again, this time by stealth. With the French political elite it is clearly self aggrandisement.

What always makes me suspicious is the haste and the politicians urge to meddle. If the EU could just be left to settle down for a few years so it can become a bit clearer to the people who live in it how, and whether, it is working that would be nice. As a cynic I tend to assume that if it needs to be changed constantly something isn't right.

[Harovan]

You stretch it farther and farther, but... I will tell you the whole truth. Here it is. It's a devilish plot...

We (ze Germans) had always a faible for a Germany from the Atlantic to the Ural. This didn't work very well last time, so now we try it another way. The French, of course, surrendered at once, after an apple was thrown in their direction. They now willingly collaborate, as always. The only thing they asked us was to call the whole thing not "Germany", but "Europe". We gratefully agreed, and went on.

So resistance is futile. You will be assimilated! All your base are belong to us.

[laurentius]

I knew it!!!

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

So resistance is futile. You will be assimilated! All your base are belong to us.

Give us cheap German beer and we will actually agree