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  • #61
    Other than the fact that it wasn't wartime, that we defined the rules of engagement and promptly broke them, and did so against a target presenting no serious risk?
    The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

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    • #62
      Laz: Britain had the right to defend itself and the Falklands come under that. Argentina did not have the right to start the war, but who started on who is of little significance to me. It is the lives of the men on the ground that matter to me more than petty political or economic issues.

      DF: You have not answered my point. You argument (and I am assuming here because you have not set it out clearly and logically), is that when in a state of war, particularly one you have not started, you are justified in celebrating victories that involve the death of an enemy. Feel free to tell me if that is a strawman.

      I refute your argument by saying that it relies on the assumption that one makes the distinction by nationality. In other words, because I am British and Juan Sanchez del Guano is Argentinian, I am justified in celebrating his death, when my flag is at odds with his. However, are we not both human? Do we not share all but physical appearance, personality and life? Do we not have the same blood running through our veins? In a peacetime situation, do we not have the capacity to become lifelong friends, and contribute fully and meaningfully to each others lives? Why, therefore, am I celebrating because someone, with whom I merely share a flag, has launched three torpedoes at his ship and killed him? My refutation is the proposition that my common humanity is far more valuable than my national alliegiance or some fallacious principle, and that because I am aware of that, I find the notion of celebrating his, or anyones death in war, wholly unacceptable and frankly sickening.
      "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
      "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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      • #63
        1)Argentina invaded the Falklands. I consider that "war time" in fact if not in name.

        2)The rules of engagement were not the result of an international law - Britain didn't HAVE to set those rules up, and by extension didn't HAVE to follow them. If Argentina intentionally sorties a cruiser and sails it OUTSIDE the exclusion zone, I think a strong argument can be made that the RoE should be violated.

        3)Did the Belgrano have the capability and the potential to kill a single British soldier or sailor? Yes. Did the British undertake a risk of loss of life in going after the Belgrano with a submarine? No. So in that sense, the cost-benefit analysis of sinking the Belgrano vs. letting it stay afloat is clearly in favor of the British decision to sink it.
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        • #64
          You argument (and I am assuming here because you have not set it out clearly and logically), is that when in a state of war, particularly one you have not started, you are justified in celebrating victories that involve the death of an enemy.
          No. Victories should be celebrated not because they result in enemy soldiers (who, by the way, are most likely innocent of personal wrongdoing) dying, but because they lead to the cessation of hostilities and a moral conclusion to the war (that is, the aggressor being defeated). I would not celebrate a US military victory in a war the US started or entered with no provocation; for example, I would not celebrate Belleau Wood, or Argonne Forest, or Chattanooga, or Inchon.
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          • #65
            1)Argentina invaded the Falklands. I consider that "war time" in fact if not in name.
            Agreed

            2)The rules of engagement were not the result of an international law - Britain didn't HAVE to set those rules up, and by extension didn't HAVE to follow them. If Argentina intentionally sorties a cruiser and sails it OUTSIDE the exclusion zone, I think a strong argument can be made that the RoE should be violated.
            Agreed

            3)Did the Belgrano have the capability and the potential to kill a single British soldier or sailor? Yes. Did the British undertake a risk of loss of life in going after the Belgrano with a submarine? No. So in that sense, the cost-benefit analysis of sinking the Belgrano vs. letting it stay afloat is clearly in favor of the British decision to sink it.
            Agreed

            None of which addressed my argument.
            "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
            "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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            • #66
              Originally posted by David Floyd
              1)Argentina invaded the Falklands. I consider that "war time" in fact if not in name.

              2)The rules of engagement were not the result of an international law - Britain didn't HAVE to set those rules up, and by extension didn't HAVE to follow them. If Argentina intentionally sorties a cruiser and sails it OUTSIDE the exclusion zone, I think a strong argument can be made that the RoE should be violated.

              3)Did the Belgrano have the capability and the potential to kill a single British soldier or sailor? Yes. Did the British undertake a risk of loss of life in going after the Belgrano with a submarine? No. So in that sense, the cost-benefit analysis of sinking the Belgrano vs. letting it stay afloat is clearly in favor of the British decision to sink it.
              1- You're entitled to your opinion.

              2- You're entitled to your opinion.

              3- You're entitled to your opinion, even though I have to point out that the Belgrano would have had to have moved several hundred miles in the opposite direction to pose a threat to absolutely anything. There may have been soldiers on the Argentine mainland, but we rather pointedly left them alone.
              The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

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              • #67
                None of which addressed my argument.
                No ****. I was addressing Laz. My next post addressed you.
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                • #68
                  1- You're entitled to your opinion.

                  2- You're entitled to your opinion.
                  Sure, and you to yours, but I'm not sure how what I am saying is inaccurate.

                  There may have been soldiers on the Argentine mainland, but we rather pointedly left them alone.
                  Three good reasons for this:
                  1)They posed no threat to the British invasion fleet. What are they gonna do, swim out with mines attached to their backs?

                  2)They had no way to be transported to the islands themselves.

                  3)The cost-benefit ratio of attacking them would not have been in Britain's favor.
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                  • #69
                    No. Victories should be celebrated not because they result in enemy soldiers (who, by the way, are most likely innocent of personal wrongdoing) dying, but because they lead to the cessation of hostilities and a moral conclusion to the war (that is, the aggressor being defeated). I would not celebrate a US military victory in a war the US started or entered with no provocation; for example, I would not celebrate Belleau Wood, or Argonne Forest, or Chattanooga, or Inchon.
                    Chasm of death. Far more significant than any moralistic victory, though a continuation of hostitilies is no more valid, a cessation is the point at which grieving should start for the pain and suffering preceding it.

                    Nonetheless, I must return to the ether from whence I came, lest I become a statistic of the brutal reign of a frankly very attractive psychology teacher. Foresooth!!
                    "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                    "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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                    • #70
                      Chasm of death. Far more significant than any moralistic victory, though a continuation of hostitilies is no more valid, a cessation is the point at which grieving should start for the pain and suffering preceding it.
                      So you are saying that the end of hostilities is no more positive than the beginning or continuation of hostilities, and as a result, not worth celebrating?
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                      • #71
                        Yup. I made a mistake.

                        10 foot concrete block.


                        Spec.
                        -Never argue with an idiot; He will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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                        • #72
                          I haven't been following this thread... but people aren't talking about that "GOTCHA!" headline as 'celebrating victory', are they? It was gloating. Gloating about killing the enemy. (as I understand, anyways. This thread is the first I've ever heard of it. )
                          Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

                          Do It Ourselves

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                          • #73
                            Heh. Very true. I'm open minded, I just think everyone else is WRONG
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                            • #74
                              *Whaleboy briefly rematerialises*

                              I am saying that the cessation of hostilities is the breathing space from which grieving should start. One should celebrate when one has gained something, not when one has merely ceased losing something. "Yay, I'm not going to get thrust into a life or death situation every day". Its not worthy of celebration, its worthy of relief, and grief for those that weren't so lucky to have the opportunity to experience it.

                              EDIT: @David Floyd

                              *Whaleboy once more disappears. When shall he return? Nobody knows. What new revelations shall he bring? We live in fear...*
                              "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                              "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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                              • #75
                                I am saying that the cessation of hostilities is the breathing space from which grieving should start. One should celebrate when one has gained something, not when one has merely ceased losing something. "Yay, I'm not going to get thrust into a life or death situation every day". Its not worthy of celebration, its worthy of relief, and grief for those that weren't so lucky to have the opportunity to experience it.
                                I disagree. Grief at the loss of life should take place throughout, not start when loss of life ceases. When loss of life ceases, you are correct, that is a time for relief, but celebration is not inappropriate, either.
                                Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
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