Minorities Getting Better Education Than Other Kids

[Az]

I misplaced the irony, then.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yavoon
most of the ppl who believe in education, are hard working and dedicated leave these neighborhoods. so what u have is a social vacuum. afterall, there is always a place where ppl who are smart and capable will leave.

Your optimism is touching. So, please explain me why it is so much harder to get a degree when you're born in the ghetto than when you're born in the upper class?

realize though that it is the culture of these neighborhoods that creates these situations.

It is one factor without a doubt. The importance given to education varies among cultures and among sub-cultures (such variations have their causes too and can be adressed).
But to the belief it is the only reason, or even the main reason, is even more ignorant than the belief this culture gap doesn't exist.

[Kuciwalker]

Spiffor - we agree on this issue. However, I disagree with you that AA in the US is acceptable. Just because society prefers white people over black people is no reason for government intervention (which, btw, is blatantly in violation of our Constitution). It isn't the government's job to change society; it isn't the government's RIGHT to change society. Moreover, capitalism solves the problem in the long run. A company that hires white people over black people even when the black people are more qualified will be less efficient than a company that hires based solely on qualifications. Plus, society itself changes over time. The discrimination against black people (and other minorities) by society has vastly decreased in the past 40 years, and I'll bet it will be nonexistant in another four decades or sooner, probably in the next generation.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Your optimism is touching. So, please explain me why it is so much harder to get a degree when you're born in the ghetto than when you're born in the upper class?


It is one factor without a doubt. The importance given to education varies among cultures and among sub-cultures (such variations have their causes too and can be adressed).
But to the belief it is the only reason, or even the main reason, is even more ignorant than the belief this culture gap doesn't exist.

it is the main reason. capitalism creates gaps. when u figure out the system go and get an education and strive to conquer ur forlorn past. what is the first thing u do? MOVE. u get the frick out. u think puffy lives in the ghetto? he lives in the hamptons man. there is constant vacating of just about anyone/everyone who becomes successful.

I don't understand ur first paragraph at all(asin how it pertains to my views, or how it even contradicts my views), perhaps u misread something.

[Kuciwalker]

yavoon is saying that the more intelligent/successful people who are born in the ghetto end up moving out. The ones who stay are the less intelligent or successful people. People who aren't successful will usually pass on the traits that make them unsuccessful to their children, meaning that over time the unsuccessful traits get concentrated in that area. Anyone who by some chance happens to have traits that make them successful move out, so those traits don't stay in the ghetto.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by skywalker
yavoon is saying that the more intelligent/successful people who are born in the ghetto end up moving out. The ones who stay are the less intelligent or successful people. People who aren't successful will usually pass on the traits that make them unsuccessful to their children, meaning that over time the unsuccessful traits get concentrated in that area. Anyone who by some chance happens to have traits that make them successful move out, so those traits don't stay in the ghetto.

yah, sorta. tho less focus on "traits" like they're genetic markers and more focus on cultural moors like "get an education." "dont smoke crack." "work hard." its the culture of the ghetto thats f'd. and since everyone who figures that out leaves, its not bound to go springy anytime soon.

[Spiffor]

Edit: Actually, Skywalker's posts are much more bollocks than Yavoon's. Yavoon is right when he's talking about the cultural gap.

Skywalker:
The willingness willing to go to school or not, the willingness to work hard or not, etc. is barely connected to individual traits. Being hardworking or hardlearning is not something you're born with, it is something you can learn to value or not.
The mainstream cultures of our western societies value hard work and value hard learning. But this is not a natural phenomenon. Actually, work was not considered as a value but as a curse until about the industrial revolution.
As a result, there are different work ethics around the world. The Americans favor hard work for oneself. The Germans favor high quality work. The Chinese historically favor hard work for the community. The French favor hard work aimed at good leisure. And countless cultures (mostly non-western) see work as a curse in which one should indulge as little as possible.

As we're talking about ghettoes since a few posts: these places suffer from being too much exposed to their own counter-culture, and too little to the mainstream culture. As a result, the values of hard work and hard learning are not valued as highly there. People who get concetrated in ghettoes aren't any less birght than middle or upper class people. They wouldn't be any less able of getting degrees if the were in the right environment.

But for a ghetto-person, it may be hard to abandon the values in which he has been raised to embrace mainstream values. He would be ridiculed by his friends, he may not be understood by his parents, and he'll enter an unknown world. This is not easy. To imagine the difficulty, imagine one second that you decide to become drug-dealer to get rich, and imagine the reaction of your acquaintances.

As per the argument that it is not the duty nor the job of the State to change society: wrong and wrong. The State pushes its values through public schooling, it rewards the behaviour that goes in the right direction according to him (rewarding pupils that do good in math rather than those who beat up all their classmates; it shows for example that the State values more brains than brawls).
I don't know if it's the job or the right of the State to do so, but it sure is doing so.

Lastly, your argument that a capitalist society will correct racist discriminations... Well, if said capitalist society is racist itself, it is economically rational for a company to hire only white people. It will make communication between colleagues easier, and it'll please the client.
There was a terrific example in Eastern France a few years back. A banker of Arab descent was looking for a job. He sent two exactly identical resumes to an Alsacian bank; the only difference being the name (very French on the one hand, and his real Arabic name OTOH). The bank accepted the first resume and replied to the second there was nothing corresponding to his profile . And, guess what was the excuse the bank gave to the media after being caught red-handed? "The clients would feel uncomfortable with an Arabic banker". Bingo, it was more economically rational for them to be racist.

Yavoon:
We agree that the ghetto culture sucks. I'm actually very much in favor of a "Kulturkampf" to basically get rid of the ghetto culture.

What I meant in my first paragraph was that it was much harder for people living in poor households to have good results at school. How come people who are born in poor families have a much harder time getting a good education than people who are born in rich families? Is this because the poor are genetically that stupider? Is this solely or mainly because of the "poor culture" of being lazy? I don't think so.

There are many reasons for having a bad performance at school, and culture is but one of them.
- You are the eldest of 5 and you must watch them while your lone mother is at work? Try study in these conditions.
- Your family can't pay for you to get a sufficient diet? Your working consitions are suddenly higher.
- You must bring money to the household? That's as much time you won't spend on learning.
- Your parents divorced and you are now emotionally weak? You'll have worse results at school.
There are many more socio-economic reasons which can explain failure at school. Culture is one of them and must be adressed too. But it would be blind of you to think culture is the main factor, let alone the only factor, which explains the educational gap between income ranges.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor
The 3 posts above (Yavoon and Skywalker) are complete bollocks.

[I'll edit this post to justify the above sentence, but I'm in a hurry in placing this post well]

its like a teaser for a leftist rant.

[Bereta_Eder]

LOL at the two last posts

[Spiffor]

edited.

[Bereta_Eder]

Interesting and articulated.

[Kuciwalker]

Skywalker:
The willingness willing to go to school or not, the willingness to work hard or not, etc. is barely connected to individual traits. Being hardworking or hardlearning is not something you're born with, it is something you can learn to value or not.
The mainstream cultures of our western societies value hard work and value hard learning. But this is not a natural phenomenon. Actually, work was not considered as a value but as a curse until about the industrial revolution.
As a result, there are different work ethics around the world. The Americans favor hard work for oneself. The Germans favor high quality work. The Chinese historically favor hard work for the community. The French favor hard work aimed at good leisure. And countless cultures (mostly non-western) see work as a curse in which one should indulge as little as possible.

As we're talking about ghettoes since a few posts: these places suffer from being too much exposed to their own counter-culture, and too little to the mainstream culture. As a result, the values of hard work and hard learning are not valued as highly there. People who get concetrated in ghettoes aren't any less birght than middle or upper class people. They wouldn't be any less able of getting degrees if the were in the right environment.

But for a ghetto-person, it may be hard to abandon the values in which he has been raised to embrace mainstream values. He would be ridiculed by his friends, he may not be understood by his parents, and he'll enter an unknown world. This is not easy. To imagine the difficulty, imagine one second that you decide to become drug-dealer to get rich, and imagine the reaction of your acquaintances.

I'm sorry, I put too much emphasis on traits. It is not only that, but that people in the ghetto who have the upbringing to be able to leave it will. Thus, those who are part of the culture that promotes success will leave, leaving only the culture that doesn't.

As per the argument that it is not the duty nor the job of the State to change society: wrong and wrong. The State pushes its values through public schooling, it rewards the behaviour that goes in the right direction according to him (rewarding pupils that do good in math rather than those who beat up all their classmates; it shows for example that the State values more brains than brawls).
I don't know if it's the job or the right of the State to do so, but it sure is doing so.

I think our definitions of the values of society differ. Schools exist (in theory) to educate us; they aren't supposed to indoctrinate us (again, in theory).

Lastly, your argument that a capitalist society will correct racist discriminations... Well, if said capitalist society is racist itself, it is economically rational for a company to hire only white people. It will make communication between colleagues easier, and it'll please the client.
There was a terrific example in Eastern France a few years back. A banker of Arab descent was looking for a job. He sent two exactly identical resumes to an Alsacian bank; the only difference being the name (very French on the one hand, and his real Arabic name OTOH). The bank accepted the first resume and replied to the second there was nothing corresponding to his profile . And, guess what was the excuse the bank gave to the media after being caught red-handed? "The clients would feel uncomfortable with an Arabic banker". Bingo, it was more economically rational for them to be racist.

In that case you are right. However, for "behind the scenes" jobs, it works. Ultimately, though, I think that this is a problem that will solve itself. It isn't something that can or should be solved through government intervention. Discrimination is wrong; two wrongs don't make a right. Also, discrimination by race (by the government) is expressly forbidden in the Constitution, and I think that even if you think that something that violates the constitution is a "good idea", you shouldn't do it.

[Spiffor]

Well, your constitution isn't mine
And since the AA exists for some time now, I guess they have found a workaround about it

[Kuciwalker]

Well, we're talking about the US, so it applies

and regarding a "workaround", from the 14th amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by skywalker
I think our definitions of the values of society differ. Schools exist (in theory) to educate us; they aren't supposed to indoctrinate us (again, in theory).

Schools indoctrinate us, media indictrinate us, family indictrinates us, peers indoctrinate us. We're being indoctrinated from womb to tomb. About any judgement of value one can tell is indoctrination, because it relays "l'ordre des choses" (I guess it could translate as "the way things naturally are")

But good and bad aren't "natural" actually. Murder for example is a very grave crime in time of peace. It becomes a virtue in times of war. Pedophilia is probably the most terrible thing one can indulge in today's societies; it was the normal way to go in ancient Athens. And even in your post to which I'm replying: you assumed that government intervention is bad without even justifying it. As an American, you're naturally suspicious of State intervention. As a French, I'm naturally eager to get it.
Every time the "way things naturally are" is repeated, it is indoctrination. But the families and the school are the most efficient in the game of indoctrination because they teach values to kids who are hardly able to resist, or to oppose preconceptions that already exist.

My point is that you can't teach kids without indoctrinating them. And I much prefer having a State do that and get a cohesive society, rather than having micro-communities do that and have an imploded society.