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  • #31
    The comrades in France are enjoying what we here in Greeceare only hoping for: a radical revolutionary pole inside the left, which has prevailed over the bankrupt reformist parties of the parliamentary left.

    The problem is this doesn't seem to have any effect on the politics of their society, which goes from bad to worse. And they seem unable to surpass the region of 5% and get themselves atop of the fascists.

    LePen's party is fascist outright. I remeber once, in 1984, when he visited Athens for a symposium, there were 5000 leftist demonstrators outside of his hotel, throwing rocks at the police that was guarding the place. Such a reception has always been the exclusive priviledge of members ofthe United States government.
    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
    George Orwell

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    • #32
      The problem with the radical left is that they can't do anything with their votes. The radical left is of no use within the parliamentary system (it refuses to have power), and half of it isn't really serious about the revolution.

      Worse, since the serious revolutionaries, the LO, are trying to get votes during elections, they use a message of protestation and avoid to talk too much about the revolution. It may drain new members in, but it doesn't contribute any significantly to prepare the public opinion to a revolution == their agenda barely goes forward.

      That's why I think votes for the radical left are wasted votes, at least currently. Most voters of the radical left expect to be governed by one of the two major parties anyways, and hope to push for a change by yelling, rather than by voting for a party that'll actually defend their interests.
      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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      • #33
        It is why their candidacy in elections is just intended as a platform. Hopefully some small sway may get them noticed by more people, although I am dubious of this tactic myself. Their best way to canvass support is at the roots in my opinion, the workplace...however groups such as LO are really at the mercy of the disposition of society and the balance of forces...
        Speaking of Erith:

        "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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        • #34
          Re: Love Le Pen? Don't worry, you'll see more of him

          Originally posted by Spiffor

          OTOH, Chirac's party (who has swallowed all of the Republican right) displeases more and more. The police minister is less and less successful in shifting the media's attention from the utter amateurishness of this government. Our wonderful cabinet is able to angry everyone: European partners, far right nutjobs, immigrants, workers... Only the police minister seems to please the population, but this popularity fades.

          well Le Pen is a disaster, and I dont see why anyone wants to defend him.

          and im certainly no fan of Chirac, and can understand anger about handling the heatwave.

          BUT - hasnt the govt finally gotten some control over law and order in France, including the wave of antisemitic attacks that the previous socialist govt was ineffective at handling. And as for health insurance, etc isnt it widely agreed that those DO need to be reformed - is the left prepared to do that?
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Oerdin
            The Guardian is such a trash paper filled with useless political hacks who ignore every piece of evidience which controdictes their own bigited political views. Wouldn't it be better to spend your time reading a paper which shows both sides (the New York Times
            The NYT on european politics?
            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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            • #36
              The NYT on european politics?
              Well, a rally-the-left article by a Brit paper is a worse source for French politics.

              Many europeans seem to have problems giving proper credit to the votes of Europe's right wing. It often reeks of anti-democratic sentiment.

              Btw, I agree that Le Pen has precious little in common with the American right wing.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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              • #37
                I'll compare the New York Times journalistic intregity to the Guardian's journalistic integrity (does it have any?) any day of the week.
                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                • #38
                  Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.

                  "Well, a rally-the-left article by a Brit paper is a worse source for French politics."

                  Nope. The NYT is so utterly and totally clueless when it comes to european politics, that no amount of bias in the Guardian could create a worse performance.

                  "Many europeans seem to have problems giving proper credit to the votes of Europe's right wing."

                  I don't understand the concept of giving "credit" to votes. Has that something to do with dimpled, hanging and pregnant chads?
                  “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                  • #39
                    Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.
                    Rightwing? Jingoistic? What the fvck?

                    I don't understand the concept of giving "credit" to votes. Has that something to do with dimpled, hanging and pregnant chads?
                    It's respecting the expressed wishes of those people. If Le Pen wins then the world is not going to end.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                    • #40
                      "Rightwing? Jingoistic? What the fvck? "

                      Rightwing bias or not is a matter of where you stand.

                      Jingoistic - every US news outlet is ravingly jingoistic, you are just so used to it that you don't even realize it.

                      "It's respecting the expressed wishes of those people. If Le Pen wins then the world is not going to end."

                      Yes. And?
                      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                        Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.
                        Jingoistic and rightwing NYT.

                        this is so good it could be sig material.
                        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                        • #42
                          HershoStropler is still angry with the New York Times, the worlds most respecdted Newspaper, because it previously revealed Europe's anti-semitism.
                          "I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

                          "I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand

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                          • #43
                            "this is so good it could be sig material."

                            That's what I write for.
                            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                              Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.
                              Not at all. As I stated earlier the reason the Guardian is a bad paper is because they are an "activist paper" and their editor has publically admited to this. The Guardian deliberately choices, writes, and presents articles for the express purpose not of presenting the news but to advance a political position. They have been caught on numerous occations ignoring the evidience which doesn't suite their political cause, grossly distorting other evidience, and then taking things which do support their cause entirely out of context.

                              If a paper cannot be trusted to report the facts with a fair representation of the background context then what good is that paper? It clearly breaks all the basics of journalism which student journalist learn in college. The one thing which seporates a journalist from a propaganda source is that the journalist makes a real attempt at being impartial and just presenting the facts so that readers can draw their own conclusions while a propagandist gives the reader his desired conclusion and only the information which supports his conclusion.

                              That's why the Guardian is a trash paper and not it doesn't share my "jingoistic and rightwing biases".
                              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                              • #45
                                "New York Times, the worlds most respecdted Newspaper"



                                I love it when threads go really silly.
                                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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