South Africa's Dirty Little Secret

[Velociryx]

Nahhh, Tripledoc. Don't worry 'bout it.

It's not personal, remember? Too far away to lose any sleep over, and besides, if we ignore it, the problem will just....go away, right? It's not very interesting anyway, except for the shock value. I mean, from a cooly impersonal academic standpoint, in looking at other great tragedies around the world, it barely even registers on the ol' RADAR!

Besides, there's a good movie on TV tonight, isn't there? And that's lots more important than losing sleep over some nameless little girl in a pisspoor country....or even sixty nameless little girls.

More seriously, I'm not advocating that anybody fly to South Africa to take up arms against these creeps. THAT is a lesson in absurdity, as I'm sure you know.

It's a local problem, and I'm quite sure that with organized watches and a bit of good old fashioned detective work, it would not be hard for the locals in town to zero in on the rapists....unless you believe that they have Romulan Cloaking technology, perhaps?

And, once found, since the police obviously aren't interested in punishing them, and since having a cookout in their honor isn't exactly sending the right message if the goal is to stop the crime, what would you propose? Sit them down and give them a good talking to, maybe? Yep...I'm sure that would fix it right up!

-=Vel=-

[Dr Strangelove]

You have to realize that South Africa is staggering under the weight of a massive crime wave. They have a horrendous murder and assault rate, not to mention rampant property crime. South Africa is not a rich nation, and it has a huge health care burden owing to the AIDS epidemic. South Africa simply can't afford enough policemen.
How could vigilantism be a solution? With an unemployment rate of 50% most of the population could probably be classified as disaffected. Arming the masses would simply magnify the problem.

[Tripledoc]

Speaking to vel.

Sure. Everybody wants the executions to begin, except the executioner. It is sooo easy for you to demand that the South Africans administer a bit of Nacht und Nebel punishmnent.

BTW where did you ever get the idea that the police is not interested in punishing them. South Africa is a democracy and the rule of law requires that punishments should be handed down from the courts, not the police. And the police is actually doing whatever they can to prevent the crimes.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Spiffor
They produce the uranium we need to build nukes.

You could always buy uranium from us. We Americans have tons of the stuff.

[Velociryx]

I said a number of posts back that it's not a great solution. By far not the best solution. The best solution would be to have an adequately sized and funded law enforcement organization that's fully capable of dealing with the problem.

That's the first, best choice, always.

That's not what South Africa has, and given the size of the crime wave they're currently facing. Given the (apparently) near-complete paralysis OF said law enforcement agency to to anything meaningful to prevent further instances of these and other crimes, what are the alternative choices?

Hand-wringing, wailing and gnashing of teeth about how much it sucks? Yeah, that'll help stop it I'm sure.

Sit them down as they're caught and rationalize with them? Talk to them about the nature and origin of the hatred they feel? Again, sounds nice, but I'm sorta thinking it won't do a lot to STOP the crimes from happening.

Or, get some people together who have HAD ENOUGH, organize them, and let them at the bastards doing the deed? Not pretty, not elegant, but it's a beginning. You say it won't solve anything....I say that every rapist caught and dealt with in the harshest possible terms, in light of law enforcement's paralysis, will send a VERY strong message to other rapists out there, and it'll make all the difference in the world to the little girl the rapist would have targeted tomorrow night. It'll make a pretty compelling difference to her, don't you imagine?

If we proceed from the notion that these crimes are born of a deep-rooted societal hatred, then one iteration of the crime will surely not be enough.

If the rapist does his thing once, that's not going to make his hatred suddenly, magically go away, will it? Hardly....and it's far, far more likely to imagine that, having gotten away with it once, he'll be inclined to do it again.

All it'd take would be one person....ONE local there, on-scene to say enough is enough and start organizing his friends.

With rampant unemployment, it certainly wouldn't be difficult to scare up people with time on their hands, and with a bit of charisma and convincing, it would not be hard to gel those people selected into a cohesive group with a common goal. Done correctly, those volunteers could work WITH law enforcement to bulk up their numbers so that something COULD be done, but make no mistake, if I was organizing said group, although I'd definitely want to work with the local law enforcement agencies, I would be extremely light handed in reining in the folks out there on patrol....with the current environment as it is there, people who commit those kinds of crimes are the sort you bludgeon first and ask questions to later.

-=Vel=-

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Or, get some people together who have HAD ENOUGH, organize them, and let them at the bastards doing the deed?

If we proceed from the notion that these crimes are born of a deep-rooted societal hatred, then one iteration of the crime will surely not be enough.

With rampant unemployment, it certainly wouldn't be difficult to scare up people with time on their hands, and with a bit of charisma and convincing, it would not be hard to gel those people selected into a cohesive group with a common goal. Done correctly, those volunteers could work WITH law enforcement to bulk up their numbers so that something COULD be done, but make no mistake, if I was organizing said group, although I'd definitely want to work with the local law enforcement agencies, I would be extremely light handed in reining in the folks out there on patrol....with the current environment as it is there, people who commit those kinds of crimes are the sort you bludgeon first and ask questions to later.

-=Vel=-

The problem is that with the conditions currently existing in Siouth Africa most of the people you might be able to gather up into a vigilante group will likely be just as dissafected with society as the perpetrators. The numbers needed to effectively make a difference would probably be greater than the number of police. Also, the resources to adequately train this group probably aren't available. Since many criminals in South Africa are armed (the death rate of on-duty police is also extrememly high) the vigilantes would also have to be armed. Soon you'd have the country broken up into small areas controlled by warlords, very much like the condition Somalia was in 10 years ago. In the end the women and girls would be worse off than before.

[Velociryx]

That's one possible future, Doc....readily admit that.

But it's not the ONLY possible outcome, or even, I would argue, the most likely.

By and large, the outcome (warlords or eventual re-stability) would be determined by the strength of leadership and the character of those leaders. Yes, it could result in a splintering of the powerbase, and we've seen living examples of that.

Doesn't have to tho, and again, given the current situation in South Africa, what other choice is there? Just let things continue in a downward spiral indefinitely without TRYING?

-=Vel=-

[Sandman]

It looks like the point in my my last post has not been noticed.

I'll try and state it more clearly: WHERE ARE THE VIGILANTES?

The righteous indignation displayed by Vel and others seems to assume that the police are preventing honest South Africans from dispensing street justice. This is unlikely to be the case, seeing as how the police can't stop the child rapes.

I bet the South African police would LOVE a bit of vigilantism. I suspect that child rape has become a cultural norm in the communities involved. These aren't individual isolated paedophiles, furtively keeping touch via the internet and trying to hide from the society. These are whole communities that have been corrupted by AIDS, drugs, drink, poverty, alcohol and violence. They'll never become vigilantes because they don't care, or they're doing the raping themselves.

[Velociryx]

Sandman: To be honest, I dunno where they are. I don't believe the police are *preventing* them from organizing, no. Given all the problems that nation faces, I have to believe that's not extremely high on the do-list.

So...I don't have an answer for that. National apathy. Acceptance that this is just the way things are and there's nothing to be done? Lack of will to make a change, or at least try? I dunno.

-=Vel=-

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So...I don't have an answer for that. National apathy. Acceptance that this is just the way things are and there's nothing to be done? Lack of will to make a change, or at least try? I dunno.

I think the reasons are much more mundane than that. Being busy with daily survival looks like a reason to me. I don't think many are ready to jeopardize their own survival while:
1. putting less energy in finding the daily money
2. risking to get actually killed by the rapists.

Besides, AIDS and sexual promiscuity are extremely high in South Africa, and many of these kids have either a dead or an absent father. You consistently talk about "if she was your daughter...", but one of the problems is that, in many cases, there is no father for blood to boil.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Sandman
It looks like the point in my my last post has not been noticed.

I'll try and state it more clearly: WHERE ARE THE VIGILANTES?

The righteous indignation displayed by Vel and others seems to assume that the police are preventing honest South Africans from dispensing street justice. This is unlikely to be the case, seeing as how the police can't stop the child rapes.

I bet the South African police would LOVE a bit of vigilantism. I suspect that child rape has become a cultural norm in the communities involved. These aren't individual isolated paedophiles, furtively keeping touch via the internet and trying to hide from the society. These are whole communities that have been corrupted by AIDS, drugs, drink, poverty, alcohol and violence. They'll never become vigilantes because they don't care, or they're doing the raping themselves.

Why would anyone notice your primitive stoneage diatribes?

The vigilantes are obviously sitting around this board writing inane comments.

And who are you to know what is 'rightious'. If your rightiousness include clubbing people to death then you can shove it.

Oh yes, and let us not only blame the actual perpetrators. Let us blame the whole culture while we are at it. No your cultural imperialism stinks, and if it wasn't because probably a lot of uneducated people would heartily agree with your utterly useless 'rightious' indignation I would not even care to comment on your idiocy.

[Sandman]

You've badly misinterpreted my post, Tripledoc.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Tripledoc


No I am saying that people who merely want to bust heads in or turn South Africa into a parking lot express fascist symphaties. People can agree with me all they want to, however I would hope that the majority of people in the real world is against vigilante justice.

And how is Vel going to 'deal with it'. He would like to kill them, but us he ready to do that? Would he really go to South Afriaca and seek out those people? Would he be ready to be imprisoned in a South African prison? If he responds with a positive, well I would have to respect that. I do hope however that his familiy and loved ones would have him committed to be treated of his insanity.

by "real world" u mean the pseudo construct of bureacracy we have built upon ourselves? cuz thats a pretty warped version of "the real world." bequeefing all moral judgement to the augmentation and machinations of disaffected corrupt politicians is a sorry ass way to live.

[Dr Strangelove]

I don't know much about the tribes living in South Africa, but in many areas of Africa grammer school aged girls are up for marriage. This ties in with FGM or female circumcision which is often used to make the girl child's introitis large enough to accomodate a man. If girl children are commonly seen as up for grabs according to local customs that may explain why there isn't a bigger furor over child rape. The other reason may be that people are preoccupied by other things, such ascaring for relatives sick with AIDS, or just the plain good old fashioned hunt for food.

[Velociryx]

Glad to see there's passion in your veins somewhere, Tripledoc!

So....what's the answer then? Shall we council them to sit around and wring their hands about how awful it is, but not actually DO anything to try and make it better? ::gasp!:: we can't suggest they actually give a damn about it, at least not to the point that they're willing to put some "oomph" behind the words, cos that would be evil "cultural imperialism," right?

So....let's just all join hands and do nothing. Stick our heads in the sand and council them to do the same.

After enough people have died, or been gang raped, or all the other stuff that's happening there, the hate HAS to cool down at some point, and then the problem will just magically vanish! An *exquisite* plan, I'm sure!

Look, NONE of the 60 little girls a day is my daughter. Nor (so far as I know) anybody who's been posting here's daughter, but that doesn't stop the outrage from showing thru with blinding clarity right here on this board, which is hosted literally thousands of miles from where it's happening.

Don't you think that it's POSSIBLE that there are at least a few people locally to where this is occuring that feel a helluva lot more passionately about it than we who are so far removed from where it's all occuring? All it'd take would be one...ONE such person who finally has enough, and that person could begin to make a change.

One.

-=Vel=-