South Africa's Dirty Little Secret

[Spiffor]

Vel:

I said it before the Iraqi war and I say it again here: your (rightful) willingness to change things make you rush in applying bad solutions. I can't speak for Tripledoc, but for myself, I say:

As much as I understand the desire for revenge, revenge is nothing a solution to the problem. If you opened the hunting season, as TMM put it, you'll end up with 80 infant rapes a day, plus the daily lynching of innocents

There are plenty of people in South Africa who are concerned about it, according to the article. For some reason, they don't advocate vigilante justice. How come they can't figure out something that simple by themselves ?

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Vel:

I said it before the Iraqi war and I say it again here: your (rightful) willingness to change things make you rush in applying bad solutions. I can't speak for Tripledoc, but for myself, I say:

As much as I understand the desire for revenge, revenge is nothing a solution to the problem. If you opened the hunting season, as TMM put it, you'll end up with 80 infant rapes a day, plus the daily lynching of innocents

There are plenty of people in South Africa who are concerned about it, according to the article. For some reason, they don't advocate vigilante justice. How come they can't figure out something that simple by themselves ?

I'd like to see the logic of infant rape increasing due to vigilantiism. on what even remotely logical ground does this rest? the whole line of reasoning is bizzarre use of drug statistics(make the drugs illegal and more ppl use illegal drugs!).

but how even that would apply to raping a 2 year old is beyond me

[Spiffor]

Yavoon:

My line of reasoning was in a previous post in this thread, but here you go again.

One of the theories explaining why infant rape is so much spread there is: the rapists are enjoying various feats of gratuitous / horrible violence because they want to get a vengeance on society. Since there are many deeds of gratuitous violence altogether, this theory seems sound to me. Especially because I don't imagine one can take a pleasure from raping an infant except the pleasure of doing the "ultimate sin" (= absolute rejection of society's values).

I think vigilantism, and its excesses, will only deepen the societal gap, and many people will feel even more alienated. And as a result, even more people will indulge in gratuitous violence, among which infant rapes.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Yavoon:

My line of reasoning was in a previous post in this thread, but here you go again.

One of the theories explaining why infant rape is so much spread there is: the rapists are enjoying various feats of gratuitous / horrible violence because they want to get a vengeance on society. Since there are many deeds of gratuitous violence altogether, this theory seems sound to me. Especially because I don't imagine one can take a pleasure from raping an infant except the pleasure of doing the "ultimate sin" (= absolute rejection of society's values).

I think vigilantism, and its excesses, will only deepen the societal gap, and many people will feel even more alienated. And as a result, even more people will indulge in gratuitous violence, among which infant rapes.

intellectualizing on why ppl do horrible things? generally its because they don't consider them horrible. tho ur theory is amusing, I think u'll find that history supports the latter(mine) and much more sensible reason.

the people doing it may not consider it the best thing, but they have probably dehumanized the object of their transgression. which is of course repeated many times throughout history.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yavoon
the people doing it may not consider it the best thing, but they have probably dehumanized the object of their transgression. which is of course repeated many times throughout history.

This is also a possible explanation. It is very possible many people indulging in gratuitous violence to do so because of the fun in it without humanising their victim. But I don't think your explanation and mine are incompatible.

Think about it. Where is the fun in killing the owner of the car you want to rob, instead of simply pulling him out of the car? Where is the fun in raping an infant, especially when you can rape the mother? (I cannot believe there is any sexual satisfaction to be taken off this)

I think the fun is simply to do what is tagged as wrong -in that case as horribly wrong- by the society. You can dehumanize the targets completely, and yet still know how wrong (according to the principles of the society) your action is.

[Dr. Stiby]

Hi,
didn't bother to read the entire thread, so maybe it's been brought up. But rapings of infants in South Africa can be explained by the relatively widespread belief among the population that AIDS can be cured by having intercourse with a virgin.
This of course doesn't justify a thing, but at least calls for better HIV/AIDS education.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

This is also a possible explanation. It is very possible many people indulging in gratuitous violence to do so because of the fun in it without humanising their victim. But I don't think your explanation and mine are incompatible.

Think about it. Where is the fun in killing the owner of the car you want to rob, instead of simply pulling him out of the car? Where is the fun in raping an infant, especially when you can rape the mother? (I cannot believe there is any sexual satisfaction to be taken off this)

I think the fun is simply to do what is tagged as wrong -in that case as horribly wrong- by the society. You can dehumanize the targets completely, and yet still know how wrong (according to the principles of the society) your action is.

though teenagers do "rebel" and do "forbidden" things. and ppl do go insane and want vengence upon society(and make good biographies!). I don't think either of those extrapolated is what is causing this.

though I think there's plenty of room for polite disagreement

=D

[pchang]

fetal alcohol syndrome

Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is associated with the development of pathalogical behavior. Something seems to happen in the brain development that results in people who just don't see a distinction between right and wrong and who are prone to violence. If a significant percentage of a population had developed this, it might explain the behavior seen in South Africa. A thousand years ago, societies like this would have been obliterated by an expanding neighbor and replaced.

[Velociryx]

Spiff...we actually don't disagree...or at least, not by much.

I completely believe that the rule of law is THE, bar none, hands down best way to handle the situation.

But when that fails (and it seems like it pretty well has, in the case of South Africa), the solution is to do something...ANYTHING, because the only other alternative is to keep still....keep silent, and suffer through a continuous downward spiral that has no end. WON"T and CAN'T have an end until someone or a group of somone's finally has enough and takes a stand.

When things reach that point, it's never pretty, it's never elegant, and it's never pleasant. Worse, the ultimate success or failure OF such desperate acts and actions are almost entirely contingent on the will and the character of the leadership that sparks it. (and that's bad because all too often, as we have seen, once the leader of such a movement tastes power, he misuses it horribly).

Still, there are, and have been instances of restored stability out of it, and in the current situation, there aren't too many other cards to play. The established forces of law in South Africa are hopelessly outmatched, outclassed, and outnumbered...overwhelmed by the problems they face to the point of paralysis, and their country is coming apart at the seams around them.

What's needed are leaders of strong will and firm character to rise up, say enough is enough and MAKE things change. Force the change.

Yep....that's not very democratic, I realize. I also realize that attempting to do much of anything democratically with things as they currently are is a fool's errand....that's why the character of the leaders is of vital importance...because WHEN those leaders restore order, they gotta have the moral fiber to re-plant the seeds of democracy....but democracy cannot rise up spontaneously out of the current situation.

Ideally, some wealthy individual with close ties to South Africa would come in and start funding a private security force to augment local law enforcement. That would put people to work, give them a sense of legitimacy, and help the local law boys keep order. It would also decrease the unemployment rate and ensure proper training and equipment for the new security detail. Again tho, finding such a philanthropist is prolly a pipe dream (or at least, finding one who didn't have some other agenda, besides seeing the nation restored). So, it falls to the rank and file to dig themselves out.

-=Vel=-

[Berzerker]

It has to do with the humiliation of indirect victims (relatives), and with the feeling of power towards the rich.

I'd say the humiliation is driving this, although the AIDS cure motive sounds plausible. But the notion that the perps are doing this to get back at the rich makes no sense. Are the victims members of rich families?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sandman
I'll try and state it more clearly: WHERE ARE THE VIGILANTES?

They're out there killing people. SA has a high murder rate.

--
This whole baby rape thing boggles my mind. How could anyone get aroused by looking at a baby? How could anyone do it to baby. IT's beyond comprehension.

[Ned]

A horrible situation. I think the cuase of the problem is social. I note the following: the crimes are committed by blacks who have plenty of alcohol and are suffering 50% unemployment. The victims are largely black as well, their parents, or more particularly, their mothers living dissolute lives with plenty of alcohol. (I wonder why single mothers are not consider unemployed.) There is not one single mention of outraged fathers doing anything. Why? I submit for your consideration that the rape victims are largely from single-parent households, as are probably the perpetrators.

If the black population had jobs and traditional families and less alcohol, the problem would vanish. If there is an agreement on this, the answer is not more police or the use of vigilantes, but more jobs and more families, and of course, a lot less alchohol.

The aids epidemic is also caused by lack of families.

I can think of lot's of incentives to get from here to there. I wonder, though, whether the South Africans will come to the same opinion about the fundamental cause of the problem.

[Lung]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Why do people always respond to this issue of child rape with tiresome tirades of beating the perpetrators to bloody pulp?

Will it solve anything?

Yes. They won't do it again.

Is it legal?

What's that got to do with it? My life wouldn't be worth living without my child, so i would have nothing to lose.

Will it make you feel better?

DUH! Of course it would! Nothing, and i repeat NOTHING is more satisfying than revenge. Revenge is a desire for natural justice, which is exactly why it happens.

Will a scientific approach to the problem help you understand the issue? Yes.

Will it then be possible to combat the problem? Yes.

Will it make you feel better? Yes.

Yes, but in the mean time, i'm doing something about it, while your solution is decades away. Lighter penalties come after some level of control is obtained. We give lenient sentences because we, to some extent, can afford to. That is a luxury that South Africa can not afford.

Besides, if someone committed such a heinous atrocity as infact rape, i wouldn't give a rat's arse about the law. I wouldn't even care if it was wrong. Besides, Tripledoc is there for that purpose

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Dr. Stiby
But rapings of infants in South Africa can be explained by the relatively widespread belief among the population that AIDS can be cured by having intercourse with a virgin.

That's probably part of the reason why, but can't explain the whole thing.

Originally posted by Tingkai
How could anyone get aroused by looking at a baby?

I reckon sex has very little to do with it. Rapes are mainly about power and control, but here, I'd add hatred, anti-social behaviour, and the belief of AIDS curing.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
and the belief of AIDS curing.

Actually, the article states that only one of the observed cases was about AIDS curing, so I think this reason is pretty minor compared to the others you stated. I'd assume AIDS curing is more frequent when it comes to rapes of formed children, rather than of infants.