Rugby World Cup 2003 - The Rugby Widows Weep!

[Havak]

A bit like the English plundering the colonies

Bit of a stretch isn’t it?

Lets stick to rugby – Two South African born and Twenty Eight English born players in the England RWC squad. Colony plundering belongs in the past – and Cape Colony is best left there?

And to contradict everything I have just said, the Little brothers were fantastic ambasadors for rugby by returning to play for Fiji once their NZ spells were over.

The Little’s returning to source after losing their NZ contracts is just the kind of farce the new regs stamped on – almost as ridiculous the two Bachop brothers and the three countries they represented between them.

Unfortunately, the situation - or the solution, anyway - isn't as simple as you seek to imply.

But it’s easier than you would have us believe too Nicely avoiding any reference to my point there should be caveats. Vickerman could have pleaded his case and any rational panel would have approved it. Rathbone would have been sent packing – and should be from what you say.

Steve Devine – should have gone via a panel too. I’d have turned him down personally as he clearly moved only for the rugby. Why should he have some divine right to change nationality when he proved not good enough for one country – too mnay kilted Kiwis fresh in my mind to think this a good thing!

Grandparents is a stretch too far. Parents are grounds for dual nationality in law. Grandparents are not.

Sorry, old son, and I know you won't take this the wrong way, but your rules have a Tory scent about them.

Take it the wrong way - would I?

Actually they are thoroughly ‘New’ Labour if you too can see my angle in saying that.

So some very robust defences there of a wriggle that really only suits poor Celtic sides and two of the less populace SH ‘big’ rugger countries. So let’s have a robust defence of the following please

Matt Cockbain is playing for Australia at the World Cup. His younger brother, Brent, plays for Wales, making his debut earlier this year. Both brothers have now played at the World Cup, but for different countries. How does that work?

The So'oialo brothers are doing something similar. Rodney is at the World Cup, playing No.8 for New Zealand. His brother Steven is playing scrumhalf for Samoa. It seems clear this is a classic example of AB talent pillaging?

Then there are the Brive-born Yachvilis. Dimitri is playing for France as a back-up scrumhalf for Fabien Galthié (but is not in the same league!). His older brother Grégoire plays flank for Georgia, qualifying only through Grandparents.

Are we having fun yet guys?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Then there are the Brive-born Yachvilis. Dimitri is playing for France as a back-up scrumhalf for Fabien Galthié (but is not in the same league!). His older brother Grégoire plays flank for Georgia, qualifying only through Grandparents.

You are welcomed to find any way to prevent Dimitri playing for France.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Vickerman could have pleaded his case and any rational panel would have approved it.

Plead his case? Why? What if he'd had a brother? Born in South Africa, came here at two years of age with the family? He would have to plead a case too?

Steve Devine – Why should he have some divine right to change nationality when he proved not good enough for one country –

Because he has a human right to change nationality. And he wasn't "proved not good enough" for one country. He wasn't given an opportunity. Typical of the d*ckhead NSW regime at the time who constantly overlooked obvious talent, explaining, for example, why so many of the players who made up the Brumbies team at its peak were players overlooked by NSW who went elsewhere.

Actually they are thoroughly ‘New’ Labour if you too can see my angle in saying that.

Enough said. And a good note on which to end. I can't recall whether this is the third or fourth episode of ether-wasting on this topic and we're as much in agreement as we ever were.

Anyway, having just had to endure our Prime Minister's sickening fawning over George Witless Bush in his 20-second hit and run visit here - in which the Democracy both Howard and Bush apparently champion went out the window for reasons of "security", thus guaranteeing dissenting voices weren't heard - I'm too depressed to bother continuing the debate.

On a lighter and brighter note, Olivier Magne has raised the prospect of this new-fangled designer steroid THG turning up inside players at the RWC. I'm not sure about turning up at the RWC, but I reckon it's a sure-fire explanation for Mr 's extraordinary capacity to post without sleep.



Edit. Oh, on another even lighter and brighter note, last night's Fiji -v- Japan match provided one of the more unusual pre-match announcements. The Fijian #3, the biggest man in world rugby, started on the bench. But he's so big, his jerseys are tailor-made. Thus he couldn't fit into the #17 jersey the reserve prop would normally wear. So he sat on the bench wearing his tailor-made #3, while the starting tighthead wore #17.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


You are welcomed to find any way to prevent Dimitri playing for France.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

The Australian s***** team faces the same problem having its players released from their foreign club duties. At least the international s***** body - whatever it's called - has some rules in place about player release for internationals.

FIFA does have rules in place but its still largely up to the individual players to argue such rights at the time of contract signing. Many Australian players probably just don't have the clout. Soccer Australia faced the added complication of the domestic league playing in the European off-season - although they've now changed over to playing during the summer.
To the extent of WC qualification though most of the quality Australian players on club duty in Europe aren't needed for official matches within Oceania - there just isn't much quality competition which is why it doesn't automatically qualify.

Let me clarify – I don’t give a monkey if Joe A, born in Auckland, whose parents are German-French plays for the ABs. That’s quite legitimate. But say there’s a Joe B, born in Fiji to Fijian parents, whose talent is spotted young and his family relocated to NZ whilst he is still a minor, and he ends up playing for the ABs – it’s wrong pure and simple.

Rather familiar territory this.
The problem is that it isn't a level playing field. Large numbers of NZers are of Island descent and can pretty much come and go as they like. That sort of a rule effectively discriminates based on birthright.
IIRC you had a rather contrary opinion not so long ago when somebody brought up the House-of-Lords and 'birthrights'?
England and old Europe have far more established populations whereas we 'down here in the colonies' have a much larger proportion of immigrants.
Semi-standard citizenship requirements require 2 years of residency. Let that be the deciding factor if necessary. 7 years is far too many.

Matt Cockbain is playing for Australia at the World Cup. His younger brother, Brent, plays for Wales, making his debut earlier this year. Both brothers have now played at the World Cup, but for different countries. How does that work?

The So'oialo brothers are doing something similar. Rodney is at the World Cup, playing No.8 for New Zealand. His brother Steven is playing scrumhalf for Samoa. It seems clear this is a classic example of AB talent pillaging?

Then there are the Brive-born Yachvilis. Dimitri is playing for France as a back-up scrumhalf for Fabien Galthié (but is not in the same league!). His older brother Grégoire plays flank for Georgia, qualifying only through Grandparents.

I'm a little shocked here. Are you now implying that individual family mambers are now bound by whatever choice the eldest (and presumably the first to play for a particular nation) makes?
Does Wilco have an older brother who's ever played for Scotland?
If he had would you be willing to dismiss him from the English side?
Somehow I rather suspect old chap that you'd find a way around it if he had.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Does Wilco have an older brother who's ever played for Scotland?
If he had would you be willing to dismiss him from the English side?

No, Havak would strongly disapprove, but accept his team's victory as a result of the player's involvement, regardless. Just as Tamerlin strongly disapproves of decoy runners but accepts une grenouille victory as a result of the tactic, regardless. Seems to be a NH thing.

[ravagon]

I think we tend to refer to that sort of thing as 'looking the other way'?

[Andydog]

Hells bells, now Chris Jack is injured. Rolled his ankle. What the friggin heck are these boys doing in training? Collins is replacing him for the Tonga game. Poor old Ali Williams – in his first game back he’ll either now have to try and last the full 80 minutes or have Reuben Thorne take over his spot with Collins moving to the blindside.

Heinous news such as this necessitates a greasy fried breakfast.

[finbar]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Greasy fried breakfast .........

That aside, I wonder if Norm Maxwell has disappeared back home? I think he has. I never knew why Mitchell only picked two and a half locks in the first place. It left no margin for injury.

[Andydog]

Hey Tamerlin, here’s something you’ll laugh at:

Peter FitzSimons comments at Rugby Heaven

The cheveux noirs of this cup so far are the French. To this point they have attracted very little attention as they have flown below the radar and simply gone about their business, but they look good.

now correct me if I’m wrong, but cheveux noirs isn’t dark horses right?

Chevaux noirs is dark horses,
Cheveux noirs is dark hair!

So Peter FitzSimons is actually saying that the French are the dark hair, the pubes of this tournament so far!

[finbar]

Peter Fitzsimons is a goose. He was picked up on it elsewhere in the paper.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by finbar
That aside, I wonder if Norm Maxwell has disappeared back home? I think he has. I never knew why Mitchell only picked two and a half locks in the first place. It left no margin for injury.

Yup he did fly back to NZ. I doubt he'll be told to re-pack his bags though, Jack's injury doesn't look too serious, they think he'll miss only the one game.

[finbar]

Half time:

All Blacks 35
Tonga 0

This could well be the first rugby match to be won 1,000,000 - 0. The Tongans were at their most competitive prior to kickoff when they started their Ikale Tahi halfway through the ABs' haka.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Just as Tamerlin strongly disapproves of decoy runners but accepts une grenouille victory as a result of the tactic, regardless.

I strongly disapproves the decoy runners whatever the team, including France.

[Havak]

Blimey you guys have strange attitudes – anything goes as long as the better players end up wearing the shirt you want them to?

If Wilko had an older brother (he actually has a younger one playing for Newcastle – who aspires to play for England) he would play for England. You know why? Representing our country of birth actually still means something for Englishmen.

Tamerlin – would you give up Marsh as well? De Villers (when fit and not high)?

He would have to plead a case too?

Yes. Anyone naturalised would have to plead a case ubnder my proposal – it’s the only way to stop the nonsense we have now with teams effectively fielding Barbarian sides. Who exactly do you think the (sadly watered down from the initial proposals) changes of 2000 were aimed at – absolutely huge offenders like us or the whiter than white pure as the driven snow Australasian sides? :sarcasm:

And now I’ve offended every Kiwi in the world by lumping them in with that identifier.

Because he has a human right to change nationality

Sure does - but I’m talking sport here not human rights – and shirt hopping sportsmen using a human rights defence is laughable quite frankly. Was he fleeing form persecution or something? People simply ‘choosing’ another nationality are a closed book to me. Weird.

I can't recall whether this is the third or fourth episode of ether-wasting on this topic and we're as much in agreement as we ever were.

It’s more than that.

Of course I can relax safe in the knowledge that the situation is only ever likely to move more to my preference rather than yours – eligibility changes never relax qualification now do they?

If Tamerlin needs testing for THG I’m sure he would parcel up a sample for you – better insulate it by surrounding it with many tins of goose and duck fat though eh?

IIRC you had a rather contrary opinion not so long ago when somebody brought up the House-of-Lords and 'birthrights'?

A neat sidestep you have there. I think an artificial social division based on birth within the same country is a little different to open borders all-can-be-kiwi-at-will don’t you?

England and old Europe have far more established populations whereas we 'down here in the colonies' have a much larger proportion of immigrants.

Oh. It’s been a while since you visited the UK hasn’t it? We have a huge (legal) immigrant population – and an even larger illegal one. Bless Tamerlins country – they used to put all the strays they didn’t one in a big camp near the channel tunnel that had no guards on it and a two foot fence with inbuilt ladders. They only closed it when we started threatening to forcibly export bitter to France.

Semi-standard citizenship requirements require 2 years of residency. Let that be the deciding factor if necessary. 7 years is far too many.

Qualifying purely on residency is already at three years I believe? It will never be reduced – expect to see it rise. Much as I might be a lone voice here the issue isn’t as clear cut as the consistent SH position here might make it look.

Now looking at this a different way the UK has had a long standing free movement and reciprocal working and social security arrangement with Ireland – they come and go as they please - maybe we should simply start picking Keith Wood and Brian O’Driscoll for England?

And we are in the EC where restraint of trade is illegal – any citizen can work freely in another member state and come and go as they please - so we’ll just offer the big French names more money and get them in England shirts. Then we could field our Barbarians side against the southern ones and everyone would be happy?

One more reason Finbar should consider moving to the UK briefly – once in here it would make it so much easier for him to move to his beloved Italy.

Somehow I rather suspect old chap that you'd find a way around it if he had.

I’ve already dismissed your impossibly hypothetical argument. Now could we have a detailed defence of the different nationality brothers please?

No, Havak would strongly disapprove, but accept his team's victory as a result of the player's involvement, regardless

The difference is the imports Clive has regrettably picked are not key to our game unlike certain other nations. And how am I looking the other way – I have confessed to our transgression and stated my disapproval.

Are you saying I shouldn’t support England because some players I disapprove of have been picked? And again Abbott is no real problem compared to transient islanders – actual parental qualification is cool enough when compared to moving purely for cash.

Anyway I see Jack’s absence is making it really hard for NZ today. By all accounts, although they are winning easily, they are still below par?

Isn’t Mr Lomu Tongan by birth incidentally…