U.S. Convoy Bombed In Gaza

[MrFun]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


You may be an idealist, but the policymakers of the US historically haven't been. It's their actions, not your ideals, which have the problem claiming the high ground.

I don't have a problem with empire - someone has to run things, but an empire that maintains it's influence through oppressive proxies is bound to eventually lose it.

An empire without at least a minimum level of oppression??

interesting paradox

[MichaeltheGreat]

The people crave.... leadership.

[Dinner]

I seem to recall the founding fathers of the United States were called terrorists. The Brits would have hanged them had they caught them.

No, they were called rebels and traitors. I doubt the term terrorist had even been invented in the 1770's.

[Alexander's Horse]

I think the US would do well to learn from the Brits how to rule the world without becoming a tyrant. They did it so well.

[lord of the mark]

MTG

well first i seem to recall a diffferent 1980s than you do. I recall a vigourous debate over policy on central america, one in which issues of human rights, death squads, etc played prominent roles. ISTR that Jeanne Kirkpatrick wrote a prominent article saying that we should distinguish between right wing authoritarian regimes and left wing totalitarian regimes, as the former were both less murderous and less permanent than the latter (poor lady wasnt terribly prescient). She wasnt writing in the abstract - her article was seen as an attack on important aspects of the Carter admin foreign policy - and the adoption of her point of view in the Reagan admin was a matter of fairly constant controversy - the subject matter of which was "we shouldnt be supporting these scum" for moralistic and/or long term self interest reasons (the two tended to get blended) versus "if we dont support them, the reds will come in, and they'll be even nastier, harder to get rid of, and hostile to us". With the fall of the Soviet block this argument tended to disappear, and the argument tended to be over whether we needed to concern ourselves with foreign matters at all.

Basically youre denying that Wilsonianism has ever had any real impact on US foreign policy. I think you mistate the history of that foreign policy in doing so.


In any case i was wrong to have replied to you in the first place. This was a double threadjacking. The thread was started to discuss the recent bombing in Gaza. Mr Horse decided to change the subject to US foreign policy, by quoting a leftie Aussie pol who said that "weve been living in a Mad max world cause of US policy" I very much doubt either the Aussie pol or Mr horse meant to indicate that weve been living in a mad max world since 1981, or 1945. I think they meant since George W Bush took office. Therefore i think they were referring specifically to Dubyas policies, not Reagans or Carters.

I think a detailed discussion of the US policy in central america in the 1980's belongs in another thread - i dont think it at all illuminates what caused the incident in Gaza, or what will likely result from it. Seems like we're all just hitting each others hot buttons, and generating more heat than light.

[The Mad Monk]

ANALYSIS: UNPRECEDENTED ATTACK AGAINST US TARGETS IN THE GAZA STRIP AND ITS IMPLICATIONS

Day to Day: October 15, 2003

Three Americans Killed in Gaza Strip Attack


ALEX CHADWICK, host:

From NPR News in Los Angeles and Slate magazine online, this is DAY TO DAY. I'm Alex Chadwick.

Coming up, there are signs of a break in the opposition at the UN to US policy in Iraq.

First, though, our lead comes out of the Gaza Strip. Three Americans were killed today when a remote-controlled bomb blew up their convoy and tore apart an armored van. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat condemned the attack as an awful crime. The United States ordered all American citizens out of the Gaza Strip. Here to talk with us about this attack is NPR's Linda Gradstein in Jerusalem.

Linda, tell us, who are these Americans and why were they in the Gaza Strip?

LINDA GRADSTEIN reporting:

Well, the Americans were security men who were hired from a private company. They were not US government officials. They were part of a convoy of Americans who were traveling to Gaza to discuss granting study scholarships for Gaza Palestinians to come to study at American universities. And the explosion occurred as they were on their way. They had just crossed the Erez crossing point from Gaza to Israel, and the explosion occurred a few minutes after that, about a mile and a half from the crossing point in northern Gaza, as the convoy drove past a gas station.

CHADWICK: Now you've already determined, investigators have already determined this was a remote-controlled bomb, which suggests it targeted this American convoy rather than a kind of random landmine kind of thing.

GRADSTEIN: That's correct. A couple of reporters saw a gray wire going from the scene of the attack to a small sort of concrete building where apparently the bomb had been set up. And Israel radio reported that three months ago, a roadside bomb was detonated next to a similar American convoy traveling in the same area, but that there were no injuries in that attack.

CHADWICK: How common is it for US officials to be in this area? And, generally, what are they doing there?

GRADSTEIN: Well, US officials travel very frequently, I would say almost every day. I mean, I've, you know, been to Gaza. Whenever I've been to Gaza, I've seen American officials in a convoy. This one, by the way, was led by a Palestinian police car. You know, American officials, part of their job is meeting with Palestinian as well as Israeli officials. I'm sure there are some American officials coming into Gaza virtually every day. The convoy is clearly marked as a diplomatic convoy. The license plates have a CD license plate. They're a white license plate as opposed to an Israeli or a Palestinian license plate. So it's very clear who they are. And both American and Israeli security officials believe that this American convoy was targeted as an attack on Americans.

CHADWICK: And who would have been behind the attack, in the kind of early estimations, anyway?

GRADSTEIN: Well, that's exactly the question. I mean, Palestinian officials say that they intend to find out. Both Hamas and Islamic Jihad, who have been behind dozens of suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis as well as several Americans in Israel, say that they were not involved in this attack. And Israeli officials and American officials say they really don't know who was behind it. But they guess that it is some militant group that is opposed to the United States' involvement in trying to push forward a diplomatic solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

CHADWICK: The FBI says it is going to go Gaza and join in the investigation. But how is it going to go, trying to figure out who might have done this?

GRADSTEIN: Well, I assume the FBI team will come and will meet with Israeli officials, will meet with Palestinian security officials, and will examine the scene and will try to come to whatever conclusions they can. Of course, you know, the United States has a fairly large presence at the embassy here. There's CIA officials. So, you know, it's a place that American diplomats know well and have been involved in for many years.

CHADWICK: I think it's fair to say that Americans are shocked at finding themselves targets of attacks here in the Gaza Strip. Should we really be shocked by this?

GRADSTEIN: Well, there has been a growing anti-American feeling among many Palestinians over the past three years. Many Palestinians believe that the United States is not carrying out a balanced policy, that the United States has not criticized Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and has basically given him a free hand to do whatever he wanted. They're angry at American criticism of Yasser Arafat. So they feel that the American policy is tilted towards Israel. Palestinians feel that the United States has accepted the Israeli position that everything that they do in the West Bank and Gaza is defensive action for their security. So there's been growing anti-American feeling in the West Bank and Gaza, as there has been in much of he Arab world.

CHADWICK: NPR's Linda Gradstein in Jerusalem. Thank you, Linda.

GRADSTEIN: Thank you, Alex.

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http://www.npr.org/programs/day/transcripts/2003/oct/031015.gradstein.html

It's becoming quite clear that they deliberately attacked Americans.

[The Mad Monk]

Wednesday’s bombing showed every mark of a carefully planned operation. From the wreckage, it appeared the explosion occurred directly beneath the driver’s seat of the second of three American vehicles, ripping off the engine, as well as the front axle and wheels. The blast, which left a crater about 15 feet wide and five feet deep, threw the vehicle into the air and cast it to the ground upside down, in a tangle of crumpled steel. Debris, blood and human tissue were spread over a wide area, with the bodies of one of the Americans thrown nearly 40 feet clear, according to witnesses at the scene.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/73170.html

Anyone know what size bomb it would take to do this?

[Eli]

I heard that it was 200 kilo.

[The Mad Monk]

Eli, what do you know about that road -- is it busy, is it paved, how difficult would it be to bury such a device secretly?

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
I don't have a problem with empire - someone has to run things, but an empire that maintains it's influence through oppressive proxies is bound to eventually lose it.

I don't think there's ever been an empire, let alone a nation, that's existed which doesn't eventually fall back on something less than desirable when it comes to maintaining or expanding what they have. The curse of humanity, I guess. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Well, something like that.

Gatekeeper