Is profit different from unfair tax?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker

It's only fair if he is willing to sell me the tool at a price which fairly compensates him for his labor and which allows me to purchase it. When this situation doesn't exist there is exploitation. Why? because Vel recieves a better deal by renting the tool and I get a worse deal. I would definitely choose the first deal but I don't have the freedom to do so. That is expoitation, and it's systematic. You have to own property to be treated fairly by the system.

You are being paid 90% more for the same effort. You aren't losing anything. You didn't have that other item to sell in the first place, so why should you complain about having to give it to him? He owns the tool because he made it - if you took it from him, you would be exploiting him. So he offers you two choices, and you have COMPLETE FREEDOM so long as you don't steal it from him. So he is really giving you 9 extra items every day, not you giving him 1 extra item every day. How is it a better deal for him? He actually now has to come up with something ELSE, because he was getting ten items' worth of money per day before and now is getting one.

I'm not given complete freedom. I don't have the freedom to own the tools that I work with. He can rent it to me because of this. The system creates a situation that allows him to exploit me.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't have the freedom to own the tools that I work with.

But you do have the freedom to own other tools that you can work with instead. Look at all the small businesses that pop up all the time.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I don't have the freedom to own the tools that I work with.

But you do have the freedom to own other tools that you can work with instead. Look at all the small businesses that pop up all the time.

Small business ownership is not always the best way to go. Many of them fail. I'm assuming that I would make the best decision for myself which very well may be renting Vel's tool.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Small business ownership is not always the best way to go. Many of them fail.

And plenty succeed. Many of the most successful businesses started off as small business. For example Microsoft.

I'm assuming that I would make the best decision for myself which very well may be renting Vel's tool.

Then you made a voluntary choice to rent Vel's tool (which is a result of his work) instead of using you own.

It's your own choice. Vel HAS his tool because he probably took the rest of small business ownership. Since you are too chicken to try, why should you benefit from Vel's tool without paying fair rental value?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Then you made a voluntary choice to rent Vel's tool (which is a result of his work) instead of using you own.

No I didn't. Let's say I started a small business and in fact failed. Then I still have to rent Vel's tool. I don't have a choice whether to own the tool. I only have a choice to take a risk.

[Kidlicious]

Lots of new participation in this communism/capitalism thread. Good to see it. Hope I didn't offend anyone. I apologize if I did.

[MichaeltheGreat]

We'd have to take communism seriously to be offended by it any more. That pretty much went south with the Berlin Wall, and even the commie Chinese have mostly become revisionist counterrevolutionary sellouts.

[Kuciwalker]

I'm not given complete freedom. I don't have the freedom to own the tools that I work with. He can rent it to me because of this. The system creates a situation that allows him to exploit me.

You have the freedom to own tools. You don't have the freedom to STEAL tools.

How about this - if you think it's exploiting you, don't accept the offer! If he offered you the use of the tool in return for 15 of the items, anyone would refuse. You think that even 1 item is exploitation. Fine. You are not required to accept the offer, so if you think it exploits you, don't accept. Problem solved. However, why should we remove the freedom of OTHER people to accept the offer? If they decide they don't see it as exploitation, why not let them do it? Basically, you are saying that because the deal would be exploiting you, it should be forbidden. But why should you keep other people from letting themselves be "exploited"? If they want to, let them!

Interestingly, those poor "exploited" people would end up being more successful than you. I wonder why, if they are being "exploited"?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker

I'm not given complete freedom. I don't have the freedom to own the tools that I work with. He can rent it to me because of this. The system creates a situation that allows him to exploit me.

You have the freedom to own tools. You don't have the freedom to STEAL tools.

How can I own the tools if I can't buy them and I can't steal them?

[Kuciwalker]

How can I own the tools if I can't buy them and I can't steal them?

You can't (unless you make them). However, you are perfectly FREE to own them; you are just INCAPABLE. Just like a mute person is FREE to speak, but CAN'T.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: So untrue

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


What I am saying was, in terms of accounting, the owner's personal finances is separate from his shop/company/etc. You can't put those on the P&L of the company.

Sure you do, its called a salary. Even the boss gets paid (thats the point of starting a business).

When a boss goes over his finances, all that stuff is factored right in there. Like 50,000, 100,000, whatever he wants to pay himself. But a good boss will not overpay himself so he'll have enough money left over to grow his company... but he's not going to jip himself either.

edit: boss = owner

damn, didn't realize this thread was so long... whatever I just said is probably way off topic, oh well, don't feel like reading 16 pages, maybe next time

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kidicious


That's because Marxism is based on reasonable assumptions and the argument is consistant, unlike it's opposing argument.

Kidicious, if you are consistent and actually address the points made by the other side instead of simply multiplying by zero and writing down the right answer, you would be the first Marxist in history to have done so to my knowledge.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the fundamental objective of most Marxists is equality? If I am correct in this assumption, then this is why anything that leads to inequaltiy is bad to a Marxist.

Non Marxists can demonstrate that human nature leads to inequality. The Marxists have two answers: 1) totalitarianism and 2) some miraculous change in human nature. Since 2) can never happen, 1) is what we always get when Marxists come to power.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No I didn't. Let's say I started a small business and in fact failed. Then I still have to rent Vel's tool.

Ah, so you are one of those people that fails once and then decides to cry for help and never try again?

Explains sooo much.

I don't have a choice whether to own the tool. I only have a choice to take a risk.

Choosing to take a risk is making a choice of whether or not to own the tool.

[Dauphin]

Just posting to get the thread one closer to 500 and thus closure.

I really wonder if Kidicious understands the concept of incentives. Re my computer question, generalised, if equipment or possessions were communal, what incentive is there to produce the equipment? What incentive is there for anyone to invent anything if they give it straight to the community? Sure some developments will be made, altruistic souls, those seeking ideas for their own worth, but that pales in comparison to profit motive. Without profit motive society would be a lot poorer and a lot more backward.

Isn't this an obvious, basic observation.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


How can I own the tools if I can't buy them and I can't steal them?

Consider the capitalization needs of your business, sell stock, borrow money, find other partners, rent until you can buy, look for a cheap knockoff, try to find a more productive process that doesn't need that particular tool, go into a sideline business to make a competing tool, sell it to others, and use the profits from that to transfer a free extra tool to your original affiliate company.

There are lots of ways for you to play with his tool, or yours, or someone elses, or to decide you want to have people play with your tool.

That whole process is what executive management is all about. Figuring out the best way of playing with the most tools.