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  • Who produced the goods and services that you consumed while you sat around on your ass thinking up ways to exploit me?
    End of ****ing story, folks. Look at this sentence. Consider the worldview that generated it.

    There are 2 very obvious holes in this particular line of thought:

    1) Inventing something that doubles the productivity of an industry IS NOT "sitting on your ass."

    2) Any goods/services consumed while not sitting on your ass, you of course must pay for. Society doesn't just give them to you. So that part makes no sense whatsoever.

    Not that this matters. In Kid's world, anyone who is more capable than him (smarter, handier, more insightful, willing to accept more risk, etc.) is an exploiter. They don't *deserve* to be wealthier than he is. Doesn't matter than you or I (or society at large) may value their contributions more than Kid's. Nope, doesn't matter at all. It's not fair, and Kid should get a piece of the pie because he works hard. Yep. Yessiree.

    Must... stop... looking... at... the... trainwreck. Must... stop... reading... thread.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

    Comment


    • Did he build the tool? If so then he should use it himself. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he builds it to take advantage of the system and profit from my work then that's another story.


      Why does he have to use it himself?! Why can't he pay people to use the tool for him. He's got the tool because of HIS hard work so why can't he ask people to use his tool to create stuff and everyone makes money? Of course Vel gets more money. It's his tool and without that, they would be making squat.

      As far as me not getting any benefit from my own work without Vel's work. That's just silly. Vel is just one person. The world would continue without his work.


      No, it isn't silly. If you say that you can live without Vel's work, then what about EVERYONE similarly situated? Without those with capital and willing to risk that capital then the world would be stuck in an agrarian mess. Without his work, your work is worth very little.

      --

      Basically, I agree with Arrian's last post .
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ned
        However, I also agree with Hitler to the extent that arguing with a Marxist is essentially pointless.
        That's because Marxism is based on reasonable assumptions and the argument is consistant, unlike it's opposing argument.
        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Flubber


          Is it the amount of time alone that gives value or that peeves you off. If I am brilliant and come up with a miraculous invention after 2 hours, is this any less valuable than if I spent 6 months of gut wrenching effort to achieve the same thing . . . its the same invention.

          You just seem peeved that sopme peole get rich on what you see as less effort.
          You have described it as less effort in the first paragraph and then in the second you claim that it is only my perception.
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Arrian
            Not that this matters. In Kid's world, anyone who is more capable than him (smarter, handier, more insightful, willing to accept more risk, etc.) is an exploiter. They don't *deserve* to be wealthier than he is. Doesn't matter than you or I (or society at large) may value their contributions more than Kid's. Nope, doesn't matter at all. It's not fair, and Kid should get a piece of the pie because he works hard. Yep. Yessiree.
            Interestingly, Adam Smith discusses innovation in the Wealth of Nations. There he shows how workers 'save' their labor. That is they find ways to become more productive. Curiously the incentive is to work less. However, I say he's naive there. It's probably just a matter of wanting to do a better job. The fact is that workers do constantly find ways to do their work more efficiently. Usually, this doesn't benefit them directly. It does benefit society as well as the owner.

            And about sitting on your ass. No, invention sometimes requires standing and moving around. The point is that people do benefit from sitting on their ass and doing nothing. We call them capitalist pigdogs.
            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
              No, it isn't silly. If you say that you can live without Vel's work, then what about EVERYONE similarly situated? Without those with capital and willing to risk that capital then the world would be stuck in an agrarian mess. Without his work, your work is worth very little.
              You missed my point. The tool can be built by someone else. It can be owned by someone else.
              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

              Comment


              • The tool can be built by someone else. It can be owned by someone else.
                That is the dumbest argument I ever heard, because it doesn't change the situation!
                Monkey!!!

                Comment


                • The tool can be built by someone else. It can be owned by someone else.


                  Then they should build it and/or own it. I'm not preventing a bunch of workers from building their own tool .
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment


                  • Why should compensation be based on effort? That is utterly moronic. If a really unskilled person spends an entire day of labor and makes 10 toy boats, should he be paid as much as someone who spends an entire day of labor and makes 100 toy boats? Should he be paid TWICE AS MUCH as someone who spends half a day and makes 50 toy boats? That is a self-destructing system. I would just decide to leisurely make 10 toy boats, not expending much effort, though of course I would be at it all day. Heck, maybe I should just make 5! What a wonderful system!

                    Here's another example, which you ignored when I posted it 2 pages back. What if Vel, instead of licensing you his tool, decides to USE IT HIMSELF and make 20 items a day for the same effort. He then, out of the goodness of his heart, charges 3/4ths the price. This is a good thing, isn't it? Now more people can buy it, because some of those who couldn't afford it before can now! They are even paying BELOW THE FAIR WAGE for it! (I know this is below the fair wage, or price, because you are charging full price, and as a good communist you would NEVER exploit your fellow workers.) But wait! Now all of the people who bought YOUR items are buying them from him, instead. In fact, while he is selling all 20 of his items, you are lucky to sell 2 or 3. In fact, he is making a little more than you were before; he is making what you would have gotten for 15 items, even though he sells 20. So he is really giving away 5 items for free. Now, you are out of business, making no money, whereas Vel is getting wealthy. Now, explain this: where did Vel exploit you? By not GIVING you his invention? He exploited you by not GIVING something that he made? Even if it didn't take that much effort to invent and build it, it still took some, so shouldn't you have to pay for it? But you know what, rather than bother with all of that hassle about exploitation, he decided to use it himself, like you suggested a while ago. And see what happens?

                    Comment


                    • Are we still talking about people working with their tools?
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                      Comment


                      • Rent is exploitive.


                        Let me ask you: Do you understand that the above is an opinion and not a demonstrable fact?

                        ... reflective mode...

                        Back in my twenties I got all interested in Astronomy, physics, etc... not enough to actually bother with the math, but enough to read about 15,000 pages of "popular" literature on the subject - Timothy Ferris, Hawking, Kip Thorne, etc. And one thing that I noticed is that it seems that the universe is based, even grows upon, disequalibrium. The differences between hot and cold. Light and dark. Solid and vacuum. Such a basic fact about our universe has even made it in the fabric of our society - look at our wedding vows, for example.

                        And one thing these books all made clear is this: when the Universe finally makes complete equilibrium, when there is no difference between one point of space and another, the Universe dies.

                        The day humanity "attains" Kids goals of equality of inputs and outputs, worth and value, knowledge and experience, is the day that humanity dies. And as the universe can, maybe will, die a heat death, so shall humanity when it achieves Kid's vision of perfect communism. Or socialism. Or whatever it is that he wants.

                        "Communism: The heat death of mankind." Too obscure for a bumper sticker?
                        Last edited by JohnT; October 29, 2003, 19:56.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                          The tool can be built by someone else. It can be owned by someone else.


                          Then they should build it and/or own it. I'm not preventing a bunch of workers from building their own tool .
                          But you are
                          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                          Comment


                          • Exactly. Kid wants EVERYONE TO BE THE SAME, and for humanity to reach a point of COMPLETE EQUILIBRIUM. The ONLY system that is unchanging is one in which nothing happens at all - a dead one. Of course, this doesn't release him from answering my other post

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kidicious


                              No I don't support such a policy


                              Well, you need to go back and reread what you're saying.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by skywalker
                                Why should compensation be based on effort? That is utterly moronic. If a really unskilled person spends an entire day of labor and makes 10 toy boats, should he be paid as much as someone who spends an entire day of labor and makes 100 toy boats? Should he be paid TWICE AS MUCH as someone who spends half a day and makes 50 toy boats? That is a self-destructing system. I would just decide to leisurely make 10 toy boats, not expending much effort, though of course I would be at it all day. Heck, maybe I should just make 5! What a wonderful system!
                                Seems moronic to me not to get compensation for effort, but it's subjective I guess.
                                Originally posted by skywalker
                                Here's another example, which you ignored when I posted it 2 pages back. What if Vel, instead of licensing you his tool, decides to USE IT HIMSELF and make 20 items a day for the same effort. He then, out of the goodness of his heart, charges 3/4ths the price.
                                Hardly out of the goodness of his heart. If you wants to sell more he has to lower his price. You are forgeting the law demand.
                                Originally posted by skywalker
                                This is a good thing, isn't it? Now more people can buy it, because some of those who couldn't afford it before can now! They are even paying BELOW THE FAIR WAGE for it! (I know this is below the fair wage, or price, because you are charging full price, and as a good communist you would NEVER exploit your fellow workers.)
                                Vel is paid more for his labor, not less. Only the price per item is less.
                                Originally posted by skywalker
                                But wait! Now all of the people who bought YOUR items are buying them from him, instead. In fact, while he is selling all 20 of his items, you are lucky to sell 2 or 3. In fact, he is making a little more than you were before; he is making what you would have gotten for 15 items, even though he sells 20. So he is really giving away 5 items for free. Now, you are out of business, making no money, whereas Vel is getting wealthy. Now, explain this: where did Vel exploit you? By not GIVING you his invention? He exploited you by not GIVING something that he made? Even if it didn't take that much effort to invent and build it, it still took some, so shouldn't you have to pay for it? But you know what, rather than bother with all of that hassle about exploitation, he decided to use it himself, like you suggested a while ago. And see what happens?
                                This all depends on whether Vel has the capacity to supply the whole market. Working by himself this would require that his new tool be extremely productive. If it is this productive then you have no point. The result would be unemployment anyway. No exploitation, but people need jobs. I prefer that there new jobs are not exploitive.
                                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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