Do you think manifest destiny is just another way of saying unjustifiable aggression?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Osweld


No, we're just the self styled rulers of the world - apparently the only animal possessing consciousness or intelligence - but we choose to kill each other by the millions.

And what's with the past tense? we're still doing it. And we'll keep on doing it. I doubt we'll ever change, because as much as we like to inlfate our egos we're still the same savages who lived in the caves.

[Jack_www]

Not all of the land the US got was taken by force. They Paid both France and Mexico for the land they got from them. Allthough in the Case of Mexico this was taken first by force then paid for latter.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www
Not all of the land the US got was taken by force. They Paid both France and Mexico for the land they got from them.

Does that really make it any better? I mean yes they did pay for it when that was the cheapest option.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Does that really make it any better? I mean yes they did pay for it when that was the cheapest option.

I dont know. BUt Texas rebelled against Mexico and then after that joined the United States. Also in California the same thing happened.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www


I dont know. BUt Texas rebelled against Mexico and then after that joined the United States. Also in California the same thing happened.

Your view is about as twisted as most textbooks. Anglos moved into those states and then rebelled. It's not like the Mexicans rebelled and joined the US.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Your view is about as twisted as most textbooks. Anglos moved into those states and then rebelled. It's not like the Mexicans rebelled and joined the US.

I know that most of the people involved were from the US. I am not that stupid, and yes this was in the text that we used in School here in the US.

[Al B. Sure!]

yes but kidicious... the Mexicans asked Americans to settle in Texas. They advertised it and gave them real cheap land. The only condition was that the Americans in Texas had to convert to Catholicism which sparked anger and led to the Texas rebellion

[Q Classic]

today though, all we hear is of how evil white men stole from the indians. we need some balance.

well, as you say that it provided no benefit whatsoever to the natives, how was forcing them onto reservations after years of decimating extermination not evil?

and imperialism, by and large, was bad.
half the ethnic conflicts in africa could probably have been avoided had the euros not created such arbitrary and artificial borders, forcing different and mutually hostile ethnicities in one "country"? or the end result of british rule in india, which is a rather unstable region in south asia, created by way of millions of hindus and muslims dead, and continuing poverty in much of the region?

i'd like to know one instance where imperialism did good for the natives.

the natives over here certainly got a raw deal.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

today though, all we hear is of how evil white men stole from the indians. we need some balance.

well, as you say that it provided no benefit whatsoever to the natives, how was forcing them onto reservations after years of decimating extermination not evil?

and imperialism, by and large, was bad.
half the ethnic conflicts in africa could probably have been avoided had the euros not created such arbitrary and artificial borders, forcing different and mutually hostile ethnicities in one "country"? or the end result of british rule in india, which is a rather unstable region in south asia, created by way of millions of hindus and muslims dead, and continuing poverty in much of the region?

i'd like to know one instance where imperialism did good for the natives.

the natives over here certainly got a raw deal.

This is true. Europe has cause its share of troubles arround the world because of imperialism.

[Al B. Sure!]

Q Cubed:

medicine, european law institutions (which, at the risk of being 'ethnocentric', actually is often times much better than native law systems; a jury system for example is better than arbritary judges/chiefs), european taboos (helped curb female circumcision in parts of africa), infrastructure building, etc.

it's silly to say no good came out of it. the general effect was negative but that don't negate the few notable goods.

and in any event, your usage of words like "decimating extermination" to describe western expansion proves my point. This was not some fiendish, Hitlerian plot to destroy the 'red-skins'. Western expansion (which i thought was the neutral, official word for this period not Manifest Destiny) happened gradually a settler at a time until the US Army got involved following native attacks on settlers and the cavalry basically sped the native decline up.

the point is though this was not some fiendish, thought-out plan.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Q Cubed:

medicine, european law institutions (which, at the risk of being 'ethnocentric', actually is often times much better than native law systems; a jury system for example is better than arbritary judges/chiefs), european taboos (helped curb female circumcision in parts of africa), infrastructure building, etc.

it's silly to say no good came out of it. the general effect was negative but that don't negate the few notable goods.

and in any event, your usage of words like "decimating extermination" to describe western expansion proves my point. This was not some fiendish, Hitlerian plot to destroy the 'red-skins'. Western expansion (which i thought was the neutral, official word for this period not Manifest Destiny) happened gradually a settler at a time until the US Army got involved following native attacks on settlers and the cavalry basically sped the native decline up.

the point is though this was not some fiendish, thought-out plan.

The little good that came from the European impearlism is out wayed by the harm that was caused. Just look at Africa today, it is a mess so is South America. While the United States is not, because they rebelled so early and have had 200 years to build the US into what it is today.

[Q Classic]

oh, sure, there were some good things to come out of imperialism. but the ends do not justify the means.
hitler built the autobahn, which led to the construction of our interstate highway system. one could argue that was a benefit that hitler gave.

there has to be a cost analysis made, and i firmly believe that the cost was far too great for such paltry gains; thus, i come to the conclusion that imperialism was a failure, responsible for more trouble than good.

how do the words "decimating extermination" connote a fiendish, hitlerian plot? it's quite easy to exterminate things without any plan whatsoever. the lack of a coherent plan does not mean that wiping a group out wasn't an extermination.
what did manifest destiny do? it decimated the native population. it exterminated their way of life. was it a coherent plan to do so? no. but were those its results? yes.
thus, manifest destiny was a decimating extermination of the natives, and whatever benefits they may have gained, outside the token spiritually-attuned actor on the telly, are paltry compared to the costs they have borne.

[Al B. Sure!]

umm... the South American revolutions occured in the first half the 19th century...

[Al B. Sure!]

Q Cubed...

so back to the original topic of the thread... whats your point? Everybody knows that period was one of brutality. no one in America in 2003 believes in that white man's burden, divine manifest destiny, etc. bull****.

so again, i'm left wondering what the point of this thread was.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
umm... the South American revolutions occured in the first half the 19th century...

Yeah, but then the US started to get involved in South America and screwed things up even more.