Do you think manifest destiny is just another way of saying unjustifiable aggression?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: Do you think manifest destiny is just another way of saying unjustifiable aggression?

Originally posted by Vesayen
<--American who mostly likes the U.S.

One thing that always pissed me off about U.S. history... Now its all in the past so it dosent really matter, but its always pissed me off when people have tried to call U.S. aggresion something other then what it was, immoral aggression.

Thoughts?

It's all immoral agression piled on top of more immoral agression.

Geopolitics is ultimately about extortion, theft and murder on a grand scale. Successful geopolitics means committing enough of the same so that you are in the position of defining what the "rules" are so you can bend them to justify your conduct and condemn your enemy's conduct.

[GePap]

Certainly Manifest Destiny was immoral, looked from a 2003 moral frame. As for one civilization being better than another, as I said elsewhere, depends on your aims for humanity. How does one define success? The answer to that is the key to what you consider a superior society.

As for the Native Americans: they were not so inflexible: the entire horse culture of the Plains was newer than the European colonies on the new world. How quickly some subsistance farmers became nomadic hunters (and this also shows the "progression" from hunter to farmer is not real)

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by JohnT
To complain about "Manifest Destiny" is to whine about a specific example of something that happens to all things. Life... systems... organizations... all try to grow and they will attempt to do so at the expense of the other.

I agree with you that that's what all society did at one point in time. However, trying to justify such naked agression by appealing to something like destiny, esp at this point in time, smacks of hypocracy.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Vesayen


So its okay to kill native americans and steal their land, and the land of mexico and other colonial powers because we need breathing room to expand?

The Native Americans said that they couldn't own land. So we just took what was lying around. It was those cheeky hypocrites in Manhattan who screwed us over on our jewelry.

[Dis]

*sigh*

Columbus day again.

He's really getting bashed heavily this time.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by JohnT

It's not that we were evil or immoral

No, we're just the self styled rulers of the world - apparently the only animal possessing consciousness or intelligence - but we choose to kill each other by the millions.

And what's with the past tense? we're still doing it. And we'll keep on doing it. I doubt we'll ever change, because as much as we like to inlfate our egos we're still the same savages who lived in the caves.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Yo there is a version of the newer Last of the Mohicans, where the Last Mohican talks about the white man moving in and how everybody's world is about to change and he kinda says the same thing that JohnT just did

I can't remember where you get it, but it's cut from the mainstream distrubution

Wow, thank you for posting that! I recently watched the DVD, and I played that ending about ten times. I thought it was so odd that I had forgotten an ending with such impact (especially the music, that film had a terrific score).

Now I know it wasn't my memory after all. It was cut!

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Dissident
yes to the original title question

The United States is an evil country. If the quality of living wasn't the best in the world, I'd move out

it's not. where will you move too?

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I agree with you that that's what all society did at one point in time. However, trying to justify such naked agression by appealing to something like destiny, esp at this point in time, smacks of hypocracy.

And who does that? Manifest Destiny is a 19th century term that hasn't been even remotely vogue since 1890 and hasn't been taught in schools as being America's "destiny" since the 1950's... right about the time that England gave up her idea of Empire.

Am I missing something here? Did somebody use the phrase in a recent speech or something, ergo making the phrase "MD" newsworthy again? I've been traveling with the family and the only news I've read over the past few days have been from the headlines that I've seen at convenience store newspaper racks.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by GePap
Certainly Manifest Destiny was immoral, looked from a 2003 moral frame.

There is a term for that in anthropology, but for the life of me I can't think of it. Regardless, it is considered to be a no-no.

[Q Classic]

well, remember, manifest destiny was carried out because at the time, we knew white man to be superior to all other barbaric races. part of it was that these red savages needed our civilizing influence, and far too many of them just refused to see a good thing when we were giving it to them, and so they fought. that's why we had to kill them.
the other part was because as white men, we needed to make this country great, and what better way to do that than to take all the land that we so rightfully deserved? we'd put it to good use. we'd make the land fertile, we'd put iron into the ground and connect the two halves of the us. we'd turn this nation into something great using good old white american know-how.

so one could argue that it had a bit to do with the white man's burden. something that was in vogue at the time.

or, you could argue that it was plain greed that drove it.

in the end, it doesn't matter. what are you going to do? roll back everything we did? are you going to donate and give your time and money to the millions of native peoples who are living below the poverty line?

**** happens. it's a pity the natives didn't have more sophisticated weapons to fight back, but progress will always crush someone else. life, unfortunately, is a zero-sum game.

[Q Classic]

just to make clear: i don't believe in the racial politics described above.

i myself am a member of one of those said "barbaric" races. you know, those effete chinamen who are industrious but stupid.

[Al B. Sure!]

i dont understand what yall are talking about. popular conception of this period at least in today's world is of ******* whitey stealing land and raping every body.

in fact, if anything, we need to go a little bit back to that whole divine Manifest Destiny idea in public education just because it wasn't an evil plot by white Americans to slaughter the 'brown' peoples of the world. The American Indians did plenty of bad (they killed good numbers of relatively peaceful white family settlers) and most white people were not slaughtering Indians and some were even against the bad treatment of indians. While the over-all effect was extremely bad for the Natives (who are still living in poverty for the most part) quite a bit of good for the nation as a whole came out of western expansion. Slave-free states were formed for example and conflicts over which states would be free or not resulted in the civil war and the emancipation of slaves. Would this have happened if the US was content with the eastern seaboard and the even Free/Slave-holding state representation in the Senate? probably not. the point is that much (often ignored) good overall for the country did come out of Manifest Destiny.

This is true for imperialism around the world where European powers are portrayed as so evil and completely using native peoples while in fact the material lives of many native peoples improved significantly. While this may not justify imperialism's treatment of natives, it is stupid to say that imperialism was all bad for native populations. I would contend though that Manifest Destiny was unique in this regard as it provided no benefit for American Indians. I suppose the reservation system was a misguided attempt at bettering the lives of natives but it failed miserably.

today though, all we hear is of how evil white men stole from the indians. we need some balance.

[Dis]

Originally posted by problem_child


it's not. where will you move too?

I've been to other countries. And yes, the quality of life is the best in the world.

We have Papa Johns pizza and Krispy Kreme donuts

[Kidlicious]

Manifest Destiny would have been great if the US was as good as it thought it was.