Bush Unveils Measures to Weaken Cuba's Castro

[Ned]

Originally posted by uh Clem
However thrilled the Cubans will be at the first sight of their Liberators pales when compared to how they'll be feeling when it sinks in that they'll be expected to reimburse their benefactors.

But then, going about the world doing good doesn't come cheap. Dropping that annoying free health care, among other things, will help the Cubans get their priorities in better order.

Actually, the free health care is highly attractive to businesses who could invest in Cuba without having to pick up the health care costs of their employees as they do in the United States.

Liberate Cuba!

[Ned]

Originally posted by JCG
Oh yeah....the Cubans WOULD fight a US Invasion, certainly...even if the US could basically bomb and/or occupy every single mile in the island, lots will resist and it won't be a very nice sight...Castro may be far from the "best" possible leader/regime for the Cubans, but certainly (at least somewhat rightly) they think he's better than whatever Bush tries to force on them by military pressure this late in the game...

Why would they fight if they know that they are not defending Cuba from conquest by a hostile power, but instead are defending communism from freedom! I have a hard time understanding why the common man would fight so hard for slavery.

[uh Clem]

Ned, by any chance did you have anything to do with forming US plans for the Vietnam War?

[JCG]

Originally posted by Ned


Why would they fight if they know that they are not defending Cuba from conquest by a hostile power, but instead are defending communism from freedom! I have a hard time understanding why the common man would fight so hard for slavery.

Because, despite all the stuff that is evidently wrong with it, it is NOT slavery and actually gives SOME tangible benefits to the common (non-opposition) man (as opposed to the standard capitalist-republic, which doesn't unless you're a world power/superpower or the "darling" of one of those....and we're talking Third World here).

In essence, many Cubans, while they may not exactly adore Castro's guts, appear to think that "better the devil you know" (of course, it doesn't help that they also knew the OTHER devil once, or at least one of its faces...and aren't/weren't exactly pleased with it back then)...

Btw, I'm not defending this position; just trying to explain it. Big difference.

If any "liberation" was to be done, it would have been much easier under Eisenhower or Kennedy (if he actually cared less about his PR and more about the issue at hand, for example...the USSR didn't make such considerations when they invaded some of their satellites), for example.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Why would they fight if they know that they are not defending Cuba from conquest by a hostile power, but instead are defending communism from freedom.

Because they'd know that they were defending themselves from conquest by a hostile foreign power, and that despite the problems with their system, it's better than what they had when Americans ran the country last time. Plus, they can look around the rest of the Caribbean and see that they are better off than everyone else, even if they don't have what Americans call a democracy.

Lord only know's why I try and explain these things to Ned. He's congenitally incapable of believing me.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Because they'd know that they were defending themselves from conquest by a hostile foreign power, and that despite the problems with their system, it's better than what they had when Americans ran the country last time. Plus, they can look around the rest of the Caribbean and see that they are better off than everyone else, even if they don't have what Americans call a democracy.

Lord only know's why I try and explain these things to Ned. He's congenitally incapable of believing me.

Actually, there is a very good argument for not simply withdrawing from Cuba after "liberation," and that is Peuto Rico. We should give the Cubans the option of becoming Americans with the same status as Peuto Rico, a full fledged State, or completely independent.

Looking back at history, it was a tragic mistake for Congress to pass a statute that we could not annex Cuba from Spain just to show the world that we were liberating Cuba then. We had no such pledge wrt Peuto Rico. And, look at what happened. Peuto Rico is one of the best of the Latin America "countries." Cuba is the worst - except for perhaps Haiti.

Also, I really enjoy Che and others stating with such certainty that the people of Cuba would fight us because the hate Americans, etc., etc., etc. What one sees in virtually ever formerly-communist country is an immense love and appreciation for the US. Who is Europe beside Britain was more behind us in the recent war? No one excelled in pro-American zeal than the formerly communist countries.

[uh Clem]

Poor analogy. The eastern European satellites had their governments imposed on them from outside (except Yugoslavia). Those "governments" were essentially agents of Moscow. Who wouldn't be happy to be rid of them?

By contrast, Castro came to power more or less on his own (as did Ho Chi Minh). Yeah, there was some outside help, but it wasn't decisive. The near-universal disgust with and loathing for Bautista was what mattered. Castro's government represents a very real and very strong element in Cuba.

Come to think of it, your analogy tends to disprove your point: people will accept almost anything in preference to being bossed around by monkeys whose first loyalty is to foreign occupiers.

[Ned]

Well, we shall see. The Iraqi's put up almost no fight at all, did they? They were defending an indigenous regime against an invading world power. Their people and their army were told that America was trying to conquer them for their oil. But they did not fight. They ran.

[uh Clem]

They seem to have stopped running.

[Ned]

Originally posted by uh Clem
They seem to have stopped running.

True. But let's make it clear that the people who are fighting are the Baathists, not all, of course, and outsiders who are not Iraqi's. The vast majority of Iraqi's are pleased with the overthrow and look forward to a new, democratic government. We should expect no less from the communists in Cuba. They may fight, but not like the Baathists. The Baathists fight because if they are caught by the people, they may be torn limb from limb. I suspect the communists of Cuba do not rule with the same zeal as did the Baathists and have nothing to fear from surrender.

[Ramo]

Yeah, he only throws them in jail for decades at a time.

Which is obviously much worse than mass-murder.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo


Which is obviously much worse than mass-murder.

Ramo, the left would be hypocritical if it did not call for Castro's arrest and trial. He started his rule in Cuba with mass executions without trial. Very similar to Pinochet. Right?

The left is NEVER hypocritical.

[Ned]

bump - no comment on Castro's mass executions Pinochet-style?

The silence of the left is screaming hypocrisy.

[Ned]

And, before I forget, John, let me ask whether you would prefer to reduce the budget deficit by raising taxes and killing the business revival thereby lowering tax revenue or by lowering them to spur a business revival to thereby increase tax revenues?

As a liberal who hates conservatives, I know you are anti-business and pro-recession.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Actually, there is a very good argument for not simply withdrawing from Cuba after "liberation," and that is Peuto Rico. We should give the Cubans the option of becoming Americans with the same status as Peuto Rico, a full fledged State, or completely independent.

1st off, Puerto Rico is a ****-hole. 2nd off, we never gave the Puerto Ricans a real choice. 3rd off, you're showing your true colors, that of the arm-chari imperialist. You don't give a damn about Cubans, you just want to see another star on the flag.