Bush Unveils Measures to Weaken Cuba's Castro

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned
Kid, You and many others appear not to have listened to Bush. He said that "Cuba will soon be free." The whole point of this thread is the statement by Bush that he plans to end the Castro dictatorship. The thread degenerated into the typical communism is good/bad thread, depending on your point of view. No one has seriously discussed Bush's message.

The question really is this: How will Bush do this? I have been thinking about it for a couple of days now. For a number of reasons, I think the Noriega plan is the only one that will work.

The attack on Panama was not an attack simply directed at Noriega...considering that Panama had under 10,000 men in ars, the US used over 20,000 men in the attack: the took over the entire country (not hard really), not just Panama City, and th estimates of Panamanian civilian deaths vary from a couple of hundread to a couple of thousands, as a poor ghetto next to the mnain headquarters of the Self- defense forces went up in flames (who started it is unknown). The fact ois of course that Cuba is overqhelmingly more heavily armed than Panama was and the US cant count on having most opf the tropp shtye need aready stationed in the country they are about to invade.

Remeber that Panama was the first time Stealth Planes were used, which I can;t figure why cause Panama had 0 air defense or airforce to speak of.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GePap


Becuase the metaphor does not work in this scenerio?

After all, why keep the stone small, but work to enlarge the mountain? And other irrelevant metaphors that avoid the valid question?

Seriously, there is a limit to how much can be done by any one entity. We don't criticize people who only give 10% of their income to charity for not giving it all, because we realize that they have needs of their own to take care of. Similarly, trying to change the political landscape of a tiny country 90 miles away seems possible for the U.S., while trying to change a country which is three times our population, has an ancient culture and is thousands of miles away from us physically seems likely to be beyond us.

Nothing wrong with the analogy. We'd like to see a free and democratic China as well, but we can't afford to make that effort. Cuba in contrast costs us very little to influence. It isn't a case of hypocrisy, merely utility.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Because even socialist countries need to trade with one another.

Using your criteria, the U.S. economy is a piece of **** because it can't produce everthing it wants/needs and must spend over a hundred billion each year buying from other countries. It's a totaly BS argument.

What you quote isn't an argument, it's a question.

[GePap]

The embargo on Cuba has failed to bring democracy for 40 years. Usualy people gove up on failed policies, and I can;t think of a more failed one than that..what proof whatsoever does anyone here have that 4 decades of embagoes have moved Cuba on inch closer to democracy?

Why not try something we haven't done? For again, what we have done for 40 years has failed completely.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sikander
What you quote isn't an argument, it's a question.

It was a question that led to a specius argument on your part.

[GePap]

It's strange: many of the people who though 12 years of comprehensive international sanctions against Iraq was too much time for too little result and called it a failed policy back 40+ years of uniateral sanctions against Cuba as sensible an correct policy that will bring about change....???

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap
The embargo on Cuba has failed to bring democracy for 40 years. Usualy people gove up on failed policies, and I can;t think of a more failed one than that..what proof whatsoever does anyone here have that 4 decades of embagoes have moved Cuba on inch closer to democracy?

Why not try something we haven't done? For again, what we have done for 40 years has failed completely.

I think this is Bush's point, exactly.

[Ned]

Che, are you going to go to Cuba to fight for the revolution? If not, I'd say that the Cuba army surrenders/vaporizes in a matter of days following the "arrest" of Castro. No soldier fights for a dictator when he knows that the "conquering army" is there to "liberate" the country from dictatorship.

As to the American people, what it does support, overwhelmingly, is a free and democratic Cuba.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned


I think this is Bush's point, exactly.

Ned: were you got the notion Bush plans to invade Cuba I can not fathom..really, this is so beyond the pale of what the admin is planning to do (which is just to tighten said embargo) that I must say it vergen on the laughable.

I can say here I bet $1000 that the Bush admin. will NOT invade Cuba during the entirety of its term, even if it wins a new one. Care to take up the bet?

[uh Clem]

As to the American people, what it does support, overwhelmingly, is a free and democratic Cuba.

Sure. Who doesn't?

But at what cost? Add in (1) taking casualties and (2) spending lots of money (3) in an occupation lasting years if not decades, that (4) poisons US relationships in Latin-America for years to come, particularly when (5) there are other, vastly more important priorities in the world, and (6) anyway the guy's likely to die sometime within the next 5-10 years.

Now how "overwhelming" would the support be?

Of course, balancing this is (1) Bush's desperate need for a foreign policy success, or at least something that isn't an utter fiasco, before November 2004. So one never knows. An administration that actually solicits advice from a crackpot like Richard Perle is capable of anything.

But the odds are still strongly against it.

[Q Classic]

i don't see how the bush administration would think invading cuba would be a good move. if it ends up like bay of pigs, it's hella bad for them. if they succeed, they end up having to build another nation on top of two other countries--and space in the budget for that doesn't seem too likely.
besides, we're still fighting a war on terror; with no links between cuba and any islamist terror group, he wouldn't be able to say that it helps our fight against terrorism any.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap


Ned: were you got the notion Bush plans to invade Cuba I can not fathom..really, this is so beyond the pale of what the admin is planning to do (which is just to tighten said embargo) that I must say it vergen on the laughable.

I can say here I bet $1000 that the Bush admin. will NOT invade Cuba during the entirety of its term, even if it wins a new one. Care to take up the bet?

Bush said, in Spanish, "Cuba shall soon be free." I simply asked how he would do that? Tightening the embargo will not work, just as you pointed out. I think another Bay of Pigs is a non starter. This left the Noriega option.

I will collect your $1,000 in Havana while we both enjoy a few rounds at the newly re-opened casinos.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
i don't see how the bush administration would think invading cuba would be a good move. if it ends up like bay of pigs, it's hella bad for them. if they succeed, they end up having to build another nation on top of two other countries--and space in the budget for that doesn't seem too likely.
besides, we're still fighting a war on terror; with no links between cuba and any islamist terror group, he wouldn't be able to say that it helps our fight against terrorism any.

Now, why in the world would we have to "rebuild" Cuba. I thought it was a socialist paradise. You are not implying, are you, that there has been no investment in infrastructure since the glorious dictator took power?

[Q Classic]

you do realize, ned, that i've never been a communist, nor someone who appreciates it, particularly because my relatives happen to live under one of its incarnations and that my brothers' godparents fled the cuban incarnation itself, and that your condescending remarks there are quite insulting.

[Az]

I will collect your $1,000 in Havana while we both enjoy a few rounds at the newly re-opened casinos.

Does that mean you accept the bet?!

This is going to be the first one on Apolyton!