October 14

[Jaguar]

This is turning out to be a weird thread. Ben's got everyone all tied up with the hypothetical grandmother situation, and nobody know's exactly what's going on.

[DRoseDARs]

Uh, Bennie-boy, Mr. Fun didn't post that article...

...I did, jackass. And you're lapping-up both fallacies like a kitten with its face in a saucer of milk. Suprise, suprise.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


LoTM:

Hardship.

What hardships do gay people currently face in today's liberal, secular society?

I agree, the family in question ought not to have refused someone whom their son would have wanted to see. The hospital ought to admit him anyways.

There is no need to marry people to get this benefit.

At least in cases where the person is too ill to express their own wishes (not uncommon among the terminally ill) the next of kin has the legal right to decide (here in the states, and i assume in the great white north as well) The hospital is legally OBLIGED to follow the wishes of the next of kin. If you're married your spouse is your next of kin. If youre not, your sibling, parent, etc is your next of kin. EVEN if there is a significant other youve been living with in a marriage like relationship for 30 years. Now if youre hetero thats a matter of choice - you COULD have gotten married. If youre gay, theres no choice. What would be the problem with establishing a legal relationship to take care of problems like this, without calling it marriage or giving it all the legal rights of marriage?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Now I ask, why do we not add a third point. Society has an ongoing benefit to encourage marriage, hence these people who make the sacrifice of having and caring for children ought to be compensated.

And why should childless married couples get these benefits?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

It takes two to tango, Azazel. This is a tacit admission that endorsing gay unions will result in the destruction of families.

Of course andy sullivan makes the point that lots of things us straight folks do weakens the institution. See for example the trivialization of it on reality television, in quickie divorce, etc. he argues that allowing people who really, deeply want the institution in would strengthen it.

Who's right? I dont know, and i dont think we can answer from theory. We can only try to experiment on a small scale, in limited ways, and see what happens.

I would be sympathetic to the argument that weve experimented enough on these things lately, and need a breather, were it not for the specific hardships weve discussed elsewhere.

[MrFun]

I can't continue any serious discussion with Ben's illogical, strawman arguments that lack coherency and relevancy.

[TCO]

Am I the only one who knows what Slow is doing? Clearly the event is the relaunch of Gameleague. This is entirely the type of buildup one would expect from Kwang. I remember the same thing done last time.

(It's a vet thang, you wouldn't understand.)

[Az]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Azazel:
How am I delegitimising? Don't they have just as much of a right to marry, as I do to my grandmother?

Stop proving my point, Ben.

Exactly. However, I would say that recognising gay marriage will have the same effect. Now be careful, I am not speaking of relationships, but of marriage.

Any such relationship between a grandmother and you, will destroy your family. Now you agree that a person having a homosexual relationship outside the borders of the family won't cause nearly as much trouble?

It takes two to tango, Azazel. This is a tacit admission that endorsing gay unions will result in the destruction of families.

It will, if the families are idiotic. It won't if they are smart families. Again, this is not the case with grandma-philia.

[TCO]

A family is a different thing than a union of two gay lovers. Neither one or the other is right or wrong. But they're not the same. Maybe we no longer need families.

[Az]

We need something that will keep a healthy population rate, and perhapse, even a small but substancial growth. The old structures have collapsed, and it's time to build something new.

[TCO]

How about abondoning children. Let's start with you.

[Az]

Oh, no, I am not going to abandon my children.

[TCO]

I want you to be abondoned.

[Az]

Could I just be spanked, instead, you know, like in the good old days?

[TCO]

You mean you're not?