Do we Americans have to let everything linger? (9th Circuit Court Delays Recall)

[SpencerH]

There will be just as much confusion over touch screens and voter disenfranchisement as with other voting methods.

I can hear the pundits whining now

Poorer people are less likely to have computers and are more likely to be technophobes

Older voters were confused, touched the wrong name, then couldnt figure out how to cancel and start again.

Gimme a break

[JohnT]

Not only that, but you'll have complaints and lawsuits by people with vision difficulties over the machines.

Voters with disabilities sue Jacksonville over access
Nov. 12, 2001 - A national disability rights group and three disabled Floridians filed a class action lawsuit against Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris and the Duval County Supervisor of Elections last week following the County's decision to purchase inaccessible voting equipment.

"Duval County has decided to purchase approximately 300 new voting machines. No more than four of the machines will be accessible to voters with disabilities and those machines, if purchased, will be located at election headquarters," says the Washington, DC-based American Association of Persons with Disabilities, who filed the suit along with the Florida residents. "There are nearly 300 polling places in the city of Jacksonville."

AAPD maintains that the county's purchase of inaccessible machines is a violation of federal law under the Americans with Disabilities Act and a violation of the Florida Constitution that guarantees each citizen the right to a "direct and secret vote."

"We've been struggling for years to get local election officials to give us adequate voting access. When it comes to accessible voting technology, we are told it is too expensive," said Jim Dickson, vice president of AAPD. "Duval County is in the process of purchasing new equipment. Why, more than ten years after the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, is Duval County discriminating against disabled voters by replacing old inaccessible voting equipment with new inaccessible voting equipment? And why is the Secretary of State allowing it?"

"This error in judgment by election officials in Duval County comes just one year after the Florida ballot debacle," said Lois Williams, senior counsel for litigation for the non-profit Washington Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs and co-counsel for the plaintiffs. "Their decision now will affect the rights of disabled voters for the next twenty years. As election officials in jurisdictions across the country consider the purchase of new voting equipment, they must also consider the rights of disabled voters."

In Florida, a county cannot purchase or use a voting machine that has not been certified by the Florida Department of State," says the non-profit Washington Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs, which is handling the suit.

Plantiffs say that currently the Florida Department of State authorizes the purchase of two types of voting systems - optical scan and touchscreen. Optical scan voting systems do not allow voters with visual or manual impairments to cast a direct and secret ballot. The touchscreen system is accessible to the visually impaired only when modified with voice capability. With other modifications, the touchscreen system can be made accessible for voters with manual impairments. Duval County is considering the purchase of no more than four touchscreen machines.

"Over half of all polling places in America are not fully accessible to people in wheelchairs; for the 10 million blind and low vision Americans, exercising the right to vote does not currently include casting an independent secret ballot," said Dickson. "Americans with disabilities should not have to sue every jurisdiction in the country just to exercise their right to vote."

A copy of the complaint filed in the U.S. District Court in Jacksonville is available to reporters and editors by contacting Jim Dickson at (202) 262-8240.

http://www.accessiblesociety.org/topics/voting/flavotesuit.htm

[JohnT]

Not to mention untrained election workers:

County officials sued for a 90-minute voting extension in a precinct at a senior center near downtown Jacksonville, a campaign stop for Janet Reno last Friday. It opened 90 minutes late because poll workers didn't realize they were supposed to turn on machines themselves. Dozens of voters left without casting ballots. County elections supervisor John Stafford called the situation "unfortunate." A precinct in a predominantly black Jacksonville neighborhood distributed Democratic primary ballots to all voters for the first 25 minutes. At least one Republican left without voting. U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, a black Democrat, tried to call the elections office to report problems but couldn't get through. Ballots jammed in optical-scanning machines due to rough tears at perforated lines. The problem was solved early. A handful of protesters picketed at election headquarters over the lack of voting machines for visually impaired voters.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Ned
I think the 9th Circuit should also void the remedy. Since the settlement of the 2000 case in 2001, at least two statewide elections have been held. Numerous candidates were elected, including Davis. Numerous ballot propositions were decided. All of this elections should be declared VOID under the reasoning of the 9th Circus opinion - they were all unconstitutionally decided using punched ballots where, according to the court, minorities are not as capable as non minorities in punching the holes in the ballot.

And oh, by the way, isn't anyone complete appalled by this latter finding, without evidence, that minorities cannot punch a ballot as well as non minorities. That finding, by itself, is OUTRAGEOUS.

I sure am. They based this stupid idea based on a study that Davis supplied the court. I heard on the news that is was totaly based on self reporting by
minority voters and weather or not they thought the wrong person was elected.

The major part of the ACLU case was that stupid study and they try to say that minorities could not use the punch card ballets as well as white voters and when ask why this is the case they said they did not know. I heard them on the news at a press conference say this very thing with my own ears. The more I hear about this ruling the more I am convinced that it is a bad one.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Why is this case being heard in Federal court, since it involves a state election?

I believe the ACLU is claiming that poor people and minorities are most likely to misvote and that this is a violation of the equal protection clause in the Constitution.

Under any system we will still have some people who just are unable to read and follow the directions so I don't see how we're going to change this.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Oerdin


I believe the ACLU is claiming that poor people and minorities are most likely to misvote and that this is a violation of the equal protection clause in the Constitution.

Under any system we will still have some people who just are unable to read and follow the directions so I don't see how we're going to change this.

Oerdin, this ratonale applies regardless of the voting machine type. If people cannot follow the written instructions, they will misvote.

The difference with the punch cards over other types is that you have to punch holes and remove chads. Why is this more difficult for minorities than anyone else?

Also, btw, I saw an interview with an expert on voting machines in California. He said the finding by the 9th Circus that punch card machines were unacceptably more inaccurate than any other machine type used in California to be patently false. The truth is that there are numerous machine types that are more inaccurate historically - even some of the newer computer types are more inaccurate because people are unfamiliar with using them.

This goes full circle - the punch cards are old and familiar, but potentially inaccurate due to the chads. But why do minorities have more problems with chads than non minorities other than the "read the instructions" issue which is common to all voting machine types?

[Dinner]

I agree with you ned. There is the issue Gepap brought up earlier where he felt it was unacceptable to have some counties using the new electronic system while other counties are still using the old punch card system. I don't buy the claim that minorities are inherently less able to follow written instructions and so are more likely to misvote so I don't see the problem as long as it's just a transitionary situation which only lasts for the recall.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Hmmm, the regulations were crafted by Wilson but the dems signed on to them just the same. The biggest problem leading up to the energy crisis was the people who believed deregulation meant the government should give up all control over monopoly businesses like power or water. The object should have been to make the system freer but still regulated so as to prevent the kinds of abuses that Enron pulled.

The reason it wasn't called "deregulated" is because there wasn't any net elimination of regulations.

The Cal-ISO and CPX were two totally new agencies created to handle market transactions.

People also forget (or just don't know) that 30% of California's electricity use never was under the old regulatory scheme in the first place (the CPUC has no jurisdiction over munis, Federal contractors, Irrigation Districts, or state agencies such as DWR) and those entities had problems just as bad or worse.

The biggest problem was timing. You can't abuse market power unless you have it, and all the Dynegy's and Southern's and Duke Power's in the world couldn't create market power if the rewinding of half of Hoover Dam's generators hadn't coincided with droughts in the SW and Pacific Northwest forcing both WAPA and Bonneville Power Administration to cut off their second and third tier contractors and force them into the wholesale energy market (taking away additional alternate import sources from the California market, while BPA and WAPA stopped being surplus power exporters).

[Ned]

I note with approval that there are no Apolyton members who are continuing to defend the 9th Circuit opinion. Congratulations!

[Jack_www]

Info on ACLU proof

Today I heard on the news that most of what the ACLU based their law suit has huge holes in it.

The First is that election officals say that the error rate includes people that chose not to vote for a certain question or vote for two people. That these people did not do it on accident but wanted to do this, in the first case because they dont want to vote for anyone that is running for office or in the second case they can't make up their minds so they vote for two people.

Anther problem in the ACLU arguments is that 2 of the counties with the highest error rates, around 3% are made up of mostly white voters not black voters.

The third problem is that the study they based their whole agrument on was funded by a company that makes touch screen voting machines and wanted to show that punch card ballots are bad in order so that they could sell more of their machines.

And finially, California law clearly lays out what counts as a vote and what does not in elections that use punch card ballots. This is different form Florida where there is no such laws and the cause of the law suits that resulted. Thus a Florida style problems with the punch cards would not happen here in California.

There is also many local elections that will be held in the state on Nov 2003 for local offices, so this may even delay these elections as well and cause huge problems.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Ned
I note with approval that there are no Apolyton members who are continuing to defend the 9th Circuit opinion. Congratulations!

Yes my opion of the posters of Apolyton went up 200%.

[Japher]

I heard someone on the radio call the 9th circuit court the "9th Circuit de' Sole"...

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Japher
I heard someone on the radio call the 9th circuit court the "9th Circuit de' Sole"...

I heard on the news some legal anaylist say that the full court wanted to review this crazy rulling because they are sick of being the laughing shock of the country.

[Japher]

To late... I'm going to run up there at lunch time just to point and laugh...

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Japher
To late... I'm going to run up there at lunch time just to point and laugh...

Me too.