Michael Meacher: This war on terrorism is bogus

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
This conspiracy theory sounds a little far off at first glance. But after reading "Stupid White Men" two days ago,

If reading SWM gets you to believe tripe like this, doesnt that make you a little skeptical of Michael Moore?

[Ramo]

Excuse me? The Patriot Act was debated vigorously? It was passed before anyone had time to read it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by oedo

this, for example, was new to me. and frankly I don´t know, if this is true, twisted or even a blatant lie.
the PNAC part is verified, AFAIK.

so, as described, this was a blatant lie.

[Arrian]

NYE's explaination might or might not be a cover story, I'm sure one would be inevitable, but if they couldn't reach the third plane with fighters, how about missiles?

That's just a ludicrous idea. The fact is that 9/11/01 was the first time somebody hijacked an airliner for the purpose of slamming it into a building and killing lots of people. Prior to that, hijacking was about taking hostages and negotiating for things.

So what in the world makes you think the U.S. government would/should have authorized the military to shoot down a loaded civilian airliner!?!?!?

If you mean that, after the first 2 had hit, you expected the government to 1) decide "right, they're using them as projectile weapons, so we have to stop them; and 2) find missle batteries, give the orders to fire, and have the 3rd plane shot out of the sky before it could hit the Pentagon, you're asking for greased lightening from an organization (the government) that usually moves with the speed of a glacier. Authorization for the shoot-down of a civilian airliner isn't something you can just snap your fingers and get.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by realpolitic
Look at the site, www.newamericancentury.org then decide. Use the search feature to find "Pearl Harbor". You'll find the pre 9/11 references lament defence expenditures are the lowest since Pearl Harbor. Post 9/11 refer to 9/11 as Pearl Harbor. .

On the morning of 9/11 I (lotm) said "this is Pearl Harbor" - without being aware of the factoid about defense expenditures. It was a natural reaction, and widespread in the US. To take it as evidence of conspiracy boggles the mind.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie


Don't take the word "everything" so literally.

Well the word everything is important. Sitting presidents tend to get their way a lot in general - they command a lot of patronage, pork barrel control, etc. Dubya had a narrow election victory, but he had a solid majority in the House and an evenly divided Senate. He got most of what he wanted passed pre 9/11. Was it easier for him post 9/11 - i suppose, but only marginally so, and for less than a year.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I have always wondered where did Duyba pull his "Axis of Evil" from. Most likely his rectum.

a conservative speechwriter, I think David Frum, but im not sure.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman


I can't believe that this can possibly be true. If it is, it's utterly insane.

the space forces have been under discussion as part of the Strategic Defense Initiative for years - thats just warmed over Reaganism - be very strange if a bunch of conservatives DIDN'T support that.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by oedo
I think this is the link you´re looking for.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.

(...)

Once a missile is tracked and targeted, this information needs to be instantly disseminated through a world-wide command-and-control system, including direct links to interceptors.

1. Re trasnformation - thats military reform. Its still gonna take a long time. It may happen faster because of 9/11. Are you seriously suggesting that the admin undertook 9/11 in order to marginally speed up military reform
Are you aware that many of the generals who would have had to have been in on the conspiracy are opponents of military reform?

2. Thats logical - command and control are necessary to missile defense - what does that have to do whats in meachers article?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by oedo


and now see on page 4, how the puppet masters make George W. Bush dance to their rhythms:

Potential rivals such as China are anxious to exploit these transformational technologies broadly, while adversaries like Iran, Iraq and North Korea are rushing to develop ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons as a deterrent to American intervention in regions they seek to dominate.

or here on page 87:

We cannot allow North Korea, Iran, Iraq or similar states to undermine American leadership, intimidate American allies or threaten the American homeland itself.

the axis of evil. when I first heard it, I thought, this was just another lapsus linguae by GWB. now I suspect it wasn´t.



nice idea. let´s find out where he´s got it from:
The current American peace will be short-lived if the United States becomes vulnerable to rogue powers with small, inexpensive arsenals of ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads or other weapons of mass destruction. - page 87


I wish I could share your optimism. well, time will tell.


now, this is what really pisses me. you don´t really discuss the points Meacher makes. you only use some shoot-dead arguments like conspiracy theorist or stupid crap. case closed. others shout anti-america or set the funny -smiley. period. any substance? nope. any arguments? zero.
so he´s a conspiracy theorist, because does nothing but quoting from the PNAC. I have to sleep over that.

good night

So the new stuff is that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfie were gunning for Iraq, Iran and NKor from day one? Didnt need Meacher to know that. And that they tried to attach that agenda to 9/11? And that some people agree, and some disagree? Duh? How is that at all evidence that 9/11 was a conspiracy. It just shows that policy advocated will attach their favored policies to any situation. The Bush admin came into office saying there should be a tax cut cause the US was prosperous, and could afford it. Theyre now pushing a tax cut cause we're in a recession and we "need" it. This doesnt show that they either caused the prosperity, or the recession.

[Dinner]

LotM just got a rare six posts in a row. :golfclap:

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

I have always wondered where did Duyba pull his "Axis of Evil" from. Most likely his rectum.

I agree. How can any list of "evil" countries be taken seriously without China in the number one position?

Ah, your blinders are in the way again. Clearly, the most evil country in the world is the US.

[Urban Ranger]

US national archives "reveal" no such thing. Or rather, they reveal it to a select few people, but not to most historians. This may not be the place to talk about Japanese signals received in 1940/41 and not successfully decoded until 1946, but to state as fact that the President of the US (and former under-secretary of the navy) connived at an attack that sunk a large proportion of his own Pacific fleet, is to go well beyond the known facts. Which is where M cheerfully went.

Hm.

Since most of the warships sunk at Pearl Harbour were subsequently floated, fixed, and put back into service, not a very large portion of the Pacific Fleet was actually lost.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
a conservative speechwriter, I think David Frum, but im not sure.

You mean this guy has such powers over GWB?

[notyoueither]

I think some people thought it was a catchy line.