Minimum Wage

[Imran Siddiqui]

Nice generalization -- all people living below poverty line is through their fault alone.

Well, I'd say more of it is their fault than the left is willing to admit and less of it is their fault than the right is willing to admit. At some point in time they have to look at themselves. The schools may suck, but if you are determined you can get through an inner city school and be successful. The harder part is changing the society of the inner city.

Its good to know a man ife is worth only whatever the market cares to provide and pay for it at any time...

Who said anything about how much a man's life is worth . This is a strawman argument. The discussion is how much a man's LABOR is worth.

[GePap]

Originally posted by MrFun


We might agree on some points, but you're still not having any luck converting me to communism's ideology.

If I were a communist then I might care. Interestingly enough those violent commies in the Catholic Church would say the same thing.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Who said anything about how much a man's life is worth . This is a strawman argument. The discussion is how much a man's LABOR is worth.

Which would be a clear distinction if it werent for the whole "we live in a market eocnomy and you need money to live" bit about modern life.

[pchang]

Money, Compassion, and Self Interest

It appears to be a universal constant that those who are smarter or more able will figure out a way to amass more wealth than those around them. It also seems that over time, the difference in wealth between those who have and those who do not tends to grow, until something comes along to change the current system (some cultural or technological upheaval).

However, compassion would dictate that we should not allow the difference in wealth between those who have and those who do not to grow too large. Surely those who have so much could give a little of what they have to those who have so little.

Enlightened self interest would also indicate that it is not wise to allow the gap to grow too large between the haves and have nots. History appears to show that when the gap between those who have and those who have not grows to large, it tends to lead to some sort of cultural upheaval. In such an event, those who have the most have the most to lose, even if they have the most means to insulate themselves from that upheaval.

Surely, there must be some way to achieve a healthy balance. Minimum wage is such an attempt. It is a flawed method, but it seems fairly easy to implement. Socialism is another method. There are others. None seems perfect.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MrFun
But you're right -- perhaps the people living on poverty wages should find ways to become more marketable. But how difficult would it be for them -- where could they even start with the meager resources they have?

When I left home at 15, I had a backpack full of stuff, about $30, and noplace to stay other than camping in friend's yards, or (luckily it was summer) a quiet corner in a nearby elementary school.

First thing, is show some initiative - even flipping burgers, you can exceed minimum wage.

Second thing, once you start making more, save it to use for something, anything, that will improve your market value further - I don't care if it's one book at a time and self-study.

Third, if the economy sucks ass where you are, figure out a way to get someplace else.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Which would be a clear distinction if it werent for the whole "we live in a market eocnomy and you need money to live" bit about modern life.

You may need money to live, but saying that money determines the value of life, means that you believe that the value of life is all economic and other parts of life simply don't matter.

Are you concluding that you are simply an economic automaton? If so, why are you posting here? Does it boost work productivity?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MrFun


Nice generalization -- all people living below poverty line is through their fault alone.

Fault doesn't pay the bills. The trouble with ideologues is they're fixated on blaming whoever their pet villain is for whatever they don't like.

Fix the ****ing problem señor, not the blame.

[Berzerker]

Its good to know a man ife is worth only whatever the market cares to provide and pay for it at any time...

Umm...that "market" constitutes individual consumers and people who provide services who eventually agree on what products should cost. Now, your position is that all these people should not have control over their decisions and that you should have that control. So, while you're deciding what a man's life is worth (and not him), you will also decide what people pay for services. What happens when some people can't afford the inflated costs you've created? Will you subsidise them with other people's money? And what about the people who can't find work because you've decided their labor should be more valuable than the value recognised by employers? Will they be subsidised too once their jobs are gone? Are you sure you're qualified to make the millions of economic decisions we make every day?

[pchang]

reality check

I sometimes get too involved with my deep thoughts and forget to look up from my navel. Posting here and being ignored acts as a good reality check.

[MichaeltheGreat]

lol

Actually, you made a very good point, and I didn't see anything to disagree with or that would further the point.

[blackice]

pchang yes too true, you post reality as did I and yet they say with 14.00 per week some how you are to go to school, move etc...

Just amazes me how people choose to ingore the obvious so justify thier ideologies...

[Berzerker]

Re: Money, Compassion, and Self Interest

Originally posted by pchang
However, compassion would dictate that we should not allow the difference in wealth between those who have and those who do not to grow too large. Surely those who have so much could give a little of what they have to those who have so little.

Yes, stealing in the name of compassion. Sorry, had to translate that "could give a little" part to reflect what you really advocate...

Enlightened self interest would also indicate that it is not wise to allow the gap to grow too large between the haves and have nots. History appears to show that when the gap between those who have and those who have not grows to large, it tends to lead to some sort of cultural upheaval. In such an event, those who have the most have the most to lose, even if they have the most means to insulate themselves from that upheaval.

Yes, let's steal to prevent stealing.

Surely, there must be some way to achieve a healthy balance. Minimum wage is such an attempt. It is a flawed method, but it seems fairly easy to implement. Socialism is another method. There are others. None seems perfect.

No, minimum wage is an attempt by leftists to acquire power by pitting the majority of working people against the minority who lose their jobs because of the artificially inflated wages. The problem is that artificial controls placed on economies by elitists will always lead to collapses, at which point the elites blame the results of their meddling on "the market".

[Berzerker]

Posting here and being ignored acts as a good reality check.

Not sure you'll appreciate my attention.

[blackice]

Berzerker

[MrFun]

Re: Re: Money, Compassion, and Self Interest

Originally posted by Berzerker


Yes, stealing in the name of compassion. Sorry, had to translate that "could give a little" part to reflect what you really advocate...



Yes, let's steal to prevent stealing.



No, minimum wage is an attempt by leftists to acquire power by pitting the majority of working people against the minority who lose their jobs because of the artificially inflated wages. The problem is that artificial controls placed on economies by elitists will always lead to collapses, at which point the elites blame the results of their meddling on "the market".

Bastardizing other people's argument, are we?



MTG -- yes, we need to do a lot less blaming -- from BOTH SIDES before we can make serious progress towards more equitable quality of life.

And I'm glad you had the exceptional experience of climbing from the very bottom to the top. You worked hard, and you earned it -- but do people living below poverty -- excluding exceptional "success" stories, even have an opportunity to climb up??