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thoughts on Theoden, KINGship, and lord of the rings

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  • #16
    Originally posted by DanS
    That's a subject that I never figured out. The only reason why Aragorn was able to become King of Gondor was because his subjects (and most importantly Faramir) allowed that to be?

    I'm going to have reread the appendices.
    By law, the heir of Elendil would become king, but it was up to the people of Gondor to recognize that someone was genuinely the heir. With the case of the king of Arthdain, they claimed he was not the true heir, IIRC. In the case of Aragorn there was no dispute.

    BTW, dont you suppose, that in the dangerous times of the war of ring, that King Theoden maintained border posts? Along the borders with Dunland, Isengard, and along the river certainly, if not with Gondor? At least a thousand posts?
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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    • #17
      With Aragorn there was no dispute because of the ghosts.
      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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      • #18
        a thousand posts along the border indeed, to keep out Orcs, wraiths, etc

        at least a thousand posts, or how else could the lord of the mark have been a king?

        And no, he wouldnt have simply announced his title, for fear of the wrath of the Valar.
        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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        • #19
          Theoden was King of Rohan and Rohan was not a vassel state to Gondor!

          It was and independant nation whose lands used to belong to Gondor but were formally given over to Eorl and his people by the Steward Cirion because Eorl came to Gondors aid during a time of war. And also because Gondor had diminished as a people and could no longer populate and defend such great a terrortory.

          Cirion and Eorl also swore an alliance between their nations to come to each others aid in times of need. You'll remember Gondor calling upon Rohan to help during the War of the Ring (sending that red arrow).

          So the relationship between them was one of allies not one being a vassel to the other.

          The time has come to discuss certain aspects of the Tolkien trilogy
          Oh and Tolkien never wrote a trilogy! He wrote LoTR as one book which the publishers printed and released in three parts.
          Shores Of Valinor.com - The Premier Tolkien Community -

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Turambar
            Theoden was King of Rohan and Rohan was not a vassel state to Gondor!

            It was and independant nation whose lands used to belong to Gondor but were formally given over to Eorl and his people by the Steward Cirion because Eorl came to Gondors aid during a time of war. And also because Gondor had diminished as a people and could no longer populate and defend such great a terrortory.

            Cirion and Eorl also swore an alliance between their nations to come to each others aid in times of need. You'll remember Gondor calling upon Rohan to help during the War of the Ring (sending that red arrow).

            So the relationship between them was one of allies not one being a vassel to the other.
            i do now recall "all hail theoden king!"

            but a "mark" means a march or borderland, does it not - usually denoting a fief? Whence the title Marquis.

            But im glad he wasnt Marquis of Rohan.
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Turambar
              Oh and Tolkien never wrote a trilogy! He wrote LoTR as one book which the publishers printed and released in three parts.
              He didn't give it to them as one book, but over several years.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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              • #22
                He didn't give it to them as one book, but over several years.
                Not sure where you got that idea from.

                Tolkien gave it to them as one whole book. The publishers decided to publish it in three parts to keep printing costs down. Tolkien had in fact finished writing all of LoTR years before it got published in 1954 / 1955.
                Shores Of Valinor.com - The Premier Tolkien Community -

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                • #23
                  What are you all talking about?!?

                  Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise wrote the Red Book of Westmarch (aka The Lord of the Rings)!

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                  • #24
                    With Aragorn there was no dispute because of the ghosts.
                    Bingo! That answers it.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                    • #25
                      Bilbo! It does.

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                      • #26
                        Couldn't you have at least tried to make it a little more subtle lord of the mark?

                        Then again, your username is cooperating nicely...

                        at least a thousand posts, or how else could the lord of the mark have been a king?


                        Civilization II: maps, guides, links, scenarios, patches and utilities (+ Civ2Tech and CivEngineer)

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                        • #27
                          Don't forget:
                          -The King of England, Richard Lionheart agreed to be vassal to the Emperor (a Hohenstaufen IIRC) in 1194.
                          -The King of England, John Lackland agreed to be vassal to the Pope in 1205.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

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                          • #28
                            I reread the passages regarding Aragorn and the other point to prove that he was the King was that he had the hands of a healer.
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                            • #29
                              I know this thread had slipped a few pages but I came across this site on the internet. I thought maybe some of you might like to look at it. Some may already know about it. It's a pretty good sized site. Lot's of info there.


                              The Encyclopedia of Arda
                              http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
                              An interactive encyclopedia of the world of J.R.R. Tolkien with thousands of entries, and interactive features including a chronicle, calendar and lexicon of Elvish names.
                              Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh

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                              • #30
                                Yeah. Someone on Sd.net posted a link to that Encyclopedia. Good stuff.
                                Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

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