thoughts on Theoden, KINGship, and lord of the rings

[lord of the mark]

Pardon the commas.

The time has come to discuss certain aspects of the Tolkien trilogy. Especially relevant in that the film of "Return of the KING" will soon be out.

Note that Theoden, ruler of Rohan, is called Lord of the Mark of Rohan, rather than King of Rohan.

Perhaps due to his relation as vassal to the ruler of Gondor, and a mediveval notion that a king cannot be a vassal?

I note he is never called "prince of Rohan"

[David Floyd]

and a mediveval notion that a king cannot be a vassal?

Actually this isn 't correct. As I recall, there was an English king who was a vassal to the French throne. Can't remember who or when, though - sorry

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Actually this isn 't correct. As I recall, there was an English king who was a vassal to the French throne. Can't remember who or when, though - sorry

There were several english kings who held what had been fiefs of France - the english tended to deny that they had to do homage for them, on grounds of the principle i mentioned above. Some - John - ISTR did do homage though. Maybe not that a king couldnt be a vassal, but that he couldnt do homage.

So, do you agree that the Lord of the Mark should have been a KING?

[chequita guevara]

A King could be vassal to an Emperor, as was the King of Bohemia to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The Crowns of Burgundy and Lotharingia were vacant, but any King would also have been a vassal of the Emperor (the Emperor himself was also King of Germany and Italy).

If you asked the Ottoman Sultan, the King of Hungary was his vassal, as he paid tribute (and later by conquest). The King of Serbia was a sometime vassal of the Ottomans.

IIRC, the King of Sweden was a vassal to the King of Denmark during the Union of Calmar

Since you wrote medieval I won't go into ancient kings and vassalage.

[chequita guevara]

BTW, Theoden is referred to as King Theoden.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A King could be vassal to an Emperor, as was the King of Bohemia to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The Crowns of Burgundy and Lotharingia were vacant, but any King would also have been a vassal of the Emperor (the Emperor himself was also King of Germany and Italy).

If you asked the Ottoman Sultan, the King of Hungary was his vassal, as he paid tribute (and later by conquest). The King of Serbia was a sometime vassal of the Ottomans.

IIRC, the King of Sweden was a vassal to the King of Denmark during the Union of Calmar

Since you wrote medieval I won't go into ancient kings and vassalage.

Good historical points, re kings and emperors.

I personaly dont particulary see the Lord of the Mark becoming an Emperor and as for becoming a Deity , well that would stir the wrath of the Valar, for sure.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
BTW, Theoden is referred to as King Theoden.

[DanS]

Well, it had been thousands of years since the southern numenorians had control over Rohan. And I don't think the Steward of Gondor ever had ultimate authority over Rohan.

Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DanS
Well, it had been thousands of years since the southern numenorians had control over Rohan. And I don't think the Steward of Gondor had authority over Rohan.

Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

When the rohirrim came down from the north about 600 years prior to the war of the ring IIRC, the Rohirrim agreed to come to the aid of Gondor at need, in return for the land. That would seem to be the definition of a military fief. Dont think homage was mentioned though.

And no, the Steward did not claim authority over the INTERNAL affairs of Rohan - but the same was true at SOME times in regard to SOME vassals.

Note also that the Stewards were not KINGS.

[SpencerH]

Rohan is not a vassal state to Gondor

[DanS]

Note also that the Stewards were not KINGS.

Of course.

When the rohirrim came down from the north about 600 years prior to the war of the ring IIRC, the Rohirrim agreed to come to the aid of Gondor at need, in return for the land. That would seem to be the definition of a military fief. Dont think homage was mentioned though.

OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DanS


OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...

yes with the Stewards, who were already ruling when the arrived, IIRC

[lord of the mark]

I am delighted that this is being treated as a serious thread about Tolkien and medieval history.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...

Yes, the line of Kings in Gondor died out well before that. The King of Arthedain then laid claim to the Crown of Gondor, but the nobility of Gonder refused to be ruled by a Northerner.

[DanS]

That's a subject that I never figured out. The only reason why Aragorn was able to become King of Gondor was because his subjects (and most importantly Faramir) allowed that to be?

I'm going to have reread the appendices.