Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I've heard of it, and I heard the author speak on NPR, but I have not read it. One can only take so much genocide, you know.

Go find a copy and read it -- we should all be more informed on parts of the past that are not pleasant.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by MrFun
Chegitz, I take you read the excellent book, "King Leopold's Ghost?"

I thought it was a great historical account of Belgium's involvement with the Congo region's peoples.

Agreed, it's an excellent book. What's also interesting is book's focus on the role of an advocacy journalist who helped stop the worst of the atrociities.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
You need to read Jasper Becker's "Hungry Ghosts" for a more accurate acount of the Great Leap Forward. It's very well documented - he was the first Chinese-speaking westerner to research the Great Leap from inside China. In a highly critical accounting, he places the blame squarely on the Party and its policies.

Or some John King Fairbank - he surely wasn't a communist.

[st_swithin]

Yeah, right, and Derek Vinyard's not a Nazi.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
China is right now experiencing the horrors of a market economy.

You are absolutely correct. The need to deal with millions of unemployed workers and particularly peasant poverty is an enormous problem.

I thought you knew this already?

[st_swithin]

Q. Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?
A. The Rape of Nanjing

[Ted Striker]

The pictures from the Rape of Nanjing are some of the most nauseating I've ever seen.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Sources?

As far as I know, it is generally accepted that the misguided policies of the Great Leap Forward destroyed China's ability to grow food. This led to famine throughout the country and an estimated 30 million deaths (the exact number is not known).

I have never read anything that says the Communist government systematically starved areas that were not loyal. If you have any sources, I'd be interested in seeing them.

It would not surprise me to hear that this was true. Certainly former Nationalists were forced into what were basically suicide units during the Korean War.

As for the argument that the Great Leap Forward amounts to manslaughter at worst, I disagree. At some point the sheer scale argues vehemently against such a definition. People don't die easily, and it would take quite an effort to undo their attempts to survive.Whether Mao was such an evil bastard that he didn't care, or such a crazy bastard that people didn't dare tell him, death on this scale takes a lot of effort, which in return requires a lot of co-conspiracy. Either way he and the ruling class knew at some point that what was happening was wrong, and for reasons of pride, fear, greed or whatever they didn't move to stop it. It's too bad these bastards never had to face the music or explain themselves to those who suffered but survived.

[Q Classic]

Sorry Q. I was with you right up until this.

hey, i like capitalism. so do a good deal of south koreans. it's the only viable system we have. but to say that it has done nothing but good things for skorea is to perpetuate a fallacy.

park chung hee was a nasty military junta fcuk. he also set the path and started the amazing economic growth for skorea.
do we forgive him for being a nasty fcuk? i don't think so... it's the same thing here with capitalism. it's done good, but it's also done some evil stuff there.
not as evil as imperialism and communism, but evil nonetheless.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sikander
Certainly former Nationalists were forced into what were basically suicide units during the Korean War.

I doubt that. The Korean War took place before ideology became overriding.

Originally posted by Sikander
At some point the sheer scale argues vehemently against such a definition.

1. There were already tons of people in China
2. Several years of famine could cause lots of deaths

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sikander
Certainly former Nationalists were forced into what were basically suicide units during the Korean War.

Given that the Chinese used mass wave attacks which were suicidal, there is likely some truth to your statement, but I never heard of former nationalists being forced into that situation. But I could be wrong.

Any sources?

Originally posted by Sikander
As for the argument that the Great Leap Forward amounts to manslaughter at worst, I disagree. At some point the sheer scale argues vehemently against such a definition. People don't die easily, and it would take quite an effort to undo their attempts to survive.

Mao was a brilliant military leader and thanks to him, a civil war that essentially lasted 100 years and cost the lives of more than 40 million people came to an end. Mao was able to bring peace to China and that was one hell of an accomplishment.

But Mao and the other party leaders were criminally incompetent when it came to running a government.

They implement policies that destroyed the farming system. With agriculture destroyed, there was no way to feed people, so millions died of starvation. There was no way to import food because China was politically isolated at the time and Mao and the gang were too proud to ask for aid anyways.

And when there is no food, people die quite easily.

First degree murder is consider murder with intent and planning. There is no indication that Mao and his buddies deliberately planned the famine.

Manslaughter is when you do something that you should reasonably know will kill someone, or when you fail to prevent someone from dying. Mao and his gang are definitely guilty of manslaughter, but not first degree murder. That's different from people like Hitler or Stalin, and on a lesser scale Nixon and Kissinger. They all knew that they were killing innocent civilians and they planned and carried out the killings.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Tingkai
That's different from people like Hitler or Stalin, and on a lesser scale Nixon and Kissinger. They all knew that they were killing innocent civilians and they planned and carried out the killings.

Or Tojo and Hirohito.

[Spiffor]

Sorry to sound stupid, but who was Tojo exactly ?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Sorry to sound stupid, but who was Tojo exactly ?

Hideki Tojo was born in Tokyo, Japan, on 30th December 1884. He joined the Japanese Army and his military service included periods in Switzerland and Germany.

Promoted to major general in 1933 be became head of the Kwantung Army's military police in September 1935. After becoming a lieutenant general he became chief of staff to the Kwantung Army (March 1937-May 1938).

In May 1938 Fumimaro Kondoye appointed Tojo as his vice minister of war. However, after six months in this post he returned to the armed services and took command of the army's aviation.

Tojo held extreme right-wing views and was a supporter of Nazi Germany. He also feared the long-term plans of Joseph Stalin and in 1938 he advocated pre-emptive air strikes on both China and the Soviet Union.

In July 1941 Tojo was appointed by Fumimaro Kondoye as minister of war. He advocated an aggressive foreign policy and strongly opposed plans by Shigenori Togo to remove Japanese troops from China and Korea.

Tojo became prime minister on 16th October 1941. He initially backed the foreign office's efforts to reach agreement with the United States. However, when convinced that a negotiated deal was possible, ordered the attack on Pearl Harbor on 7th December, 1941.

As well as prime minister Tojo also held the posts of minister of war, home minister and foreign minister. From February 1944 he was also Commander in Chief of the General Staff.

Tojo, aware that Japan was unable to win the war, resigned from office after the loss of Saipan in July 1944. He shot himself in the chest just before he was arrested by the US Military in 1945. Tojo survived and after being nursed back to health was tried as a war criminal. Hideki Tojo was executed on 23rd December 1948.

[Spiffor]

Thanks Ge