Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

[Drake Tungsten]

Now you are simply betraying your ignorance of Chinese history. My advice: you really need to read up some before engaging in this kind of discussion, at least if you want to be taken seriously.

Oh lord, now you're trying to call my knowledge into question? Why don't you actually demonstrate how I'm wrong instead of just telling me that you think I'm ignorant or biased. Or, if you don't want to have a real discussion, just let know. I don't come to Poly to hear nationalistic babble; I can hear that in Nara, but with some excellent scenery to go with it.

[Drake Tungsten]

This history of capitalism in Korea has not been very good until very recently.

You think they would be better off under any other system? Capitalism should be judged on a relative basis, not a subjective one, as Churchill so wisely pointed out.

edit: BTW, Japan invaded Korea for geo-strategic purposes, not economic ones. The Manchurian invasion, which was for economic purposes, happened much later and marked a new phase in Japanese imperialism, namely the search for autarky.

[Q Classic]

You think they would be better off under any other system? Capitalism should be judged on a relative basis, not a subjective one, as Churchill so wisely pointed out.

the question isn't whether they'd be better off. it's whether or not capitalism has contributed to the ills of korea, and the answer to that is yes.

[mindseye]

Oh lord, now you're trying to call my knowledge into question?

Yes, I am. You clearly don't know the reasons why Chinese people admire Mao - or even that most hold a very mixed view of him. This is so basic to the last fifty years of Chinese history, that I think if you don't understand this, your knowledge on this topic must be quite minimal.

[Drake Tungsten]

the question isn't whether they'd be better off. it's whether or not capitalism has contributed to the ills of korea, and the answer to that is yes.

So the West is to blame for all of Korea's problems, even though we liberated you from the Japanese, protected you from communism and introduced the economic system that has made you a regional power? Wow, we're some evil bastards...

[Q Classic]

edit: BTW, Japan invaded Korea for geo-strategic purposes, not economic ones. The Manchurian invasion, which was for economic purposes, happened much later and marked a new phase in Japanese imperialism, namely the search for autarky.

umm... no. japan occupied korea because a) the northern regions of korea had the capacity for an industrial base with several natural resources, for b) cheap slave labor, and c) a colonial market to dump japanese goods. indeed, several of the largest conglomerates in korea today got their start during the occupation.

how is that not economic in addition to the standard geo-political reasons?

[Q Classic]

So the West is to blame for all of Korea's problems, even though we liberated you from the Japanese, protected you from communism and introduced the economic system that has made you a regional power? Wow, we're some evil bastards...

i didn't say that. i said there was plenty of blame to go around. there's a lot of blame to be laid in korea, too: the damn retainer who signed the annexation treaty, the idiots in the royal palace so distanced from reality that they allowed foreign powers like japan into the kingdom's ruling government...

teddy roosevelt did believe that japan's occupation of korea would be a good thing, and gave it his tacit blessing. secstate dean acheson thought the 38th parallel would be a good dividing line. until recently, the west thought korea would be nothing more than an african nation between china and japan.

i'm not saying that all of the fault is the west. i'm saying the west is just as responsible as japan, korea, and china for what happened there.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by mindseye You clearly don't know the reasons why Chinese people admire Mao - or even that most hold a very mixed view of him.

Because they've been brain washed from birth to believe he was a great leader and not the mass murdering, incompetent swine that he was?

Naw, couldn't be...

[Q Classic]

You clearly don't know the reasons why Chinese people admire Mao - or even that most hold a very mixed view of him.

Because they've been brain washed from birth to believe he was a great leader and not the mass murdering, incompetent swine that he was?

that, incidentally, is the same reason why the west thinks it's the best thing to have happened to man.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Because they've been brain washed from birth to believe he was a great leader and not the mass murdering, incompetent swine that he was?

Because he ended China's prostration at the feet of the West. Because he drove the Japanese from China. Because he defeated the various seperatist warlords and reunited China. Because he drove the murderous KMT from China. Because he made China a power to be reckoned with again.

[Drake Tungsten]

how is that not economic in addition to the standard geo-political reasons?

The early phases of Japanese imperialism were obviously geared towards geo-strategic goals, as they focused on areas that had little economic value but were considered valuable strategic points (Korea, Formosa, German colonies in the Central Pacific). The economic thrust of Japanese imperialsim, however, didn't begin until after WWI.

Before that point, the Japanese did not believe that their lack of economic self-suffiency would pose a huge problem in a future military conflict. Most wars up to that point had been brief affairs won by military forces that had existed prior to the outbreak of hostilities. This was especially true in the Japanese case, as you can see by examining the Russo-Japanese war and the Sino-Japanese war of 1894-95.

World War I changed the thinking of the Japanese military drastically. The Great War had been long-lasting and had bled dry the modern economies of the European combatants. This new kind of war required a powerful and self-sufficient economy, something that Japan did not have and could not feasibly build in the resource poor areas of the Japanese Empire. As such, the military leaders turned their sights to mainland Asia, first to the rich mineral deposits in Manchuria and eventually to other parts of China and the oil-rich Dutch East Indies. This phase of Japanese imperialism was much more grandiose than the earlier phase (which included the occupation of Korea) and was undertaken for entirely different reasons.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Because they've been brain washed from birth to believe he was a great leader and not the mass murdering, incompetent swine that he was?

Naw, couldn't be...

Brainwashed from birth? Sorry, these days not even the Communist Party claims that Mao was blameless.

From what I've been able to gather, most Chinese believe Mao was truly a great leader up until the Great Leap Forward. If you look at what he did, there is good reason for these claims. After that point, opinion is split over whether he was ignorant, over-ambitious, developed mental problems, or simply became a power-drunk tyrant. I believe the "official" Party line is that Mao was 70% "correct".

You really don't see Mao t-shirts around China anymore. Now young people wear Che Gueverra t-shirts (although few I've asked know who he was, they just think it's a cool-looking t-shirt).

You see a lot more t-shirts with the good ol' US stars-n-bars than you see of Che and Mao shirts added together.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

how is that not economic in addition to the standard geo-political reasons?

The early phases of Japanese imperialism were obviously geared towards geo-strategic goals, as they focused on areas that had little economic value but were considered valuable strategic points (Korea, Formosa, German colonies in the Central Pacific).

The fact that they were strategic in no way mitigates that the economically valuable (with the exception of the German islands). Both Korea and Taiwan were very rich colonies.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by mindseye
Now young people wear Che Guevera t-shirts

[Drake Tungsten]

The fact that they were strategic in no way mitigates that the economically valuable (with the exception of the German islands). Both Korea and Taiwan were very rich colonies.

The fact that they ended up being economically valuable in no way mitigates the fact that they were conquered because of their strategic value and for the prestige an empire bestowed on a newly powerful Japan, not for economic reasons.