Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by TCO
And I said "decent". What should they get a medal? They were farked. Admitting that is a first step.

They have done much more than merely admitting it. They have completely changed their ways, their culture, and their relation to authority in regard to the nazi horrors.

Yes, it hasn't changed how evil they were in the past (if you know any way to do so, please let me know ). But it sure helps them not to do so again in the future. Bigtime.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Yes, it hasn't changed how evil they were in the past (if you know any way to do so, please let me know ).

Any future death camp organizers found to be hung by neck until dead. Israeli assasin bullet is too good for them.

[TCO]

Maybe I am being a little over the top. hmmm.

[Combat Ingrid]

@ TCO
On topic: I have discussed this isue with my Chinese friends and it seems like the major issue is that Japan has never bothered about apologizing for their atrocities. This gives the impression they don't consider the actions wrong or that they don't think the Chinese deserve an apology. So I can certainly understand their grudge.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

Originally posted by DanS
Why do Asians still hold WWII grudges, when it happened a long time ago?

On sheer scale and brutality, much of what the Japanese did would make veteran SS-Totenkopfverbande puke.

Further, if they hold so many grudges, why don't these countries give the US props for putting the smackdown on the Japanese? If the Asians really remembered their history, the US would be the most popular country in the neighborhood. Instead, we hear a lot of thinly masked xenophobia toward the US. Even among our allies in SK!

The Chinese and Koreans realize that we responded to Japan when we were attacked, not because we were so outraged at what one bunch of "inscrutable orientals" did to another bunch. Korea had been under Japanese slave-labor exploitation and cultural genocide for three decades before Pearl, and our overall response in China wasn't a hell of a lot, either. They realize that we acted in our interests. We still treat the RoK like at best a junior partner in that security arrangment, when it's mostly their meat, and entirely their land, that will go into the grinder if the **** hits the fan. When the RoK army was what it was back in the days of "Whitey" Paik, that made some sense. With the state of training, professionalism and competence of the modern RoK armed forces, it really doesn't, but we have always treated them as lessers - something the Koreans have dealt with from the origins of the Chinese and later Japanese empires, so it tends to rub.

Lastly, there seem to be some Eastern Asian countries that are less stuck in the past. The US has good relations with Vietnam, for instance, and there seems to be very little personal animosity among the Vietnamese people against the US. Is this a difference in culture among different groups of Asians?

Not so much, as the fact that the Vietnamese realize they have no friend in China. Again, there's a strategic alignment of interests. After all, at one point we harbored relatively benign feelings and sympathy for Uncle Joe and the USSR.

Nothing helps two people become friends faster than a big mutual enemy.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Spiffor

"Decent" ? They have actively promoted their own guilt for 50 years.

And their legions of victims have been actively dead for 50 years.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
And their legions of victims have been actively dead for 50 years.

So ? Does it make their efforts into acknowledging it any less outstanding ?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Hell, if I could get the Japanese to level LA then I'd pay them.

hey hey hey watch it

And they can't do that because they own half of it anyway.

Korean immigrants own the other half

[Combat Ingrid]

Re: Re: Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

The Chinese and Koreans realize that we responded to Japan when we were attacked, not because we were so outraged at what one bunch of "inscrutable orientals" did to another bunch. Korea had been under Japanese slave-labor exploitation and cultural genocide for three decades before Pearl, and our overall response in China wasn't a hell of a lot, either.

If China should thank anyone for fighting the Japanese, it should actually rather be the Russians. As US dropped the nukes over Japan, Soviet troops launched a massive invasion into Manchuria to kick out the Japanese. They were then greeted as liberators by the Chinese people.

Of course, during the cold war, it was not in Western interests to recognise that USSR liberated China and thus played an important role in defeating Japan.

[Sprayber]

Re: Re: Re: Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
As US dropped the nukes over Japan, Soviet troops launched a massive invasion into Manchuria to kick out the Japanese. They were then greeted as liberators by the Chinese people.

Of course, during the cold war, it was not in Western interests to recognise that USSR liberated China and thus played an important role in defeating Japan.

I think they might be more impressed if the Soviets had declared war before the outcome was assured.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DanS
Why should they? We're about 3 generations removed from the fight.

Because their grandfathers hadn't?

It's not about any single person, it's about Japan as a country and as a society, it's about the Japanese as a culturally distinct group, that has not shown remorse towards its past atrocities.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DanS
It has been 70 years since Nanking, Richard. That's not practically yesterday.

Maybe not to you.

Originally posted by DanS
And even if it were, it's not a proper basis for foreign policy today!

Why not? Japan has shown no remorse for its past atrocities. They whitewash their history textbooks to hide their crimes. There are even Nanjing Massacre Deniers making BS assertions dispite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Their govenment has not taken the same position that the German government has ("We were evil aggressors. We are sorry for what we did and we promise that it will never happen again.")

How can its neighbours trust it?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
And their legions of victims have been actively dead for 50 years.

And those war criminals are still being worshipped each year by Carbinet members.

[Drake Tungsten]

Nothing helps two people become friends faster than a big mutual enemy.

As the homoerotic relationship between France and Germany amply proves...

The difference between Germany and Japan in terms of penitence for their acts in WWII is mainly due to the differing strategic situations that faced those countries after the war.

Germany was faced with a huge and immediate threat in the Soviets, a threat that required it to immediately grovel to its neighbors and the U.S. Germany needed to become part of a larger security organization in order to fend off the Soviet threat and ass kissing was an integral part of the process that led to the eventual acceptance of Germany back into the European community, first in NATO and eventually in the EU.

Japan, OTOH, faced no large security threat after WWII. The Soviet threat in Asia was small and the Chinese were still a backward nation. In this situation, there was no need for a mutual security organization like NATO in Asia and no real reason for Japan to kowtow to its neighbors like the Germans did. The only ally Japan really needed was the U.S. and they have done a good job of fostering that relationship.

So, while it is true that the Germans have been more penitent for their actions than the Japanese have, that does not mean that the Germans are somehow more ashamed of their past actions than the Japanese. The German government has gone farther to apologize for its past than the Japanese government, but this is more than likely a result of differing political necessities rather than some greater sense of shame in Germany. The general populations in both countries seem very pacifistic and ashamed of their pasts and I don't see much difference between them.

As for the original topic, I think that the grudges from WWII are being held longer in East Asia for three main reasons.

One is the lack of of official signs of contrition from the Japanese government. I think I explained the reasons for this pretty well above, but there is little doubt that the lack of public apologies from the Japanese government, especially when compared to the Germans, angers many of the other countries in the region.

The second is political expediency, as Sprayber already mentioned. Japan provides an easy target to stir up anger and forment nationalism, the ideology of choice for the CCP leadership. The leaders of China aren't going to abandon Japan-bashing as long as it is useful to them.

Third, the general culture in East Asia tends to lead to the formation of more powerful and longer-lasting grudges than in other parts of the world. Confucianism creates a strong group identity, which leads to a certain amount of xenophobia in most East Asian societies. It also introduces the idea that responsibility can be passed down from generation to generation, which allows grudges to fester. It should also be remembered that the bad blood between Japan, Korea and China didn't suddenly crop up after WWII; the atrocities of WWII only served to strengthen the prejudices and anger that had already existed. Take WWII out of the picture and the Koreans would probably still be pissed about Hideyoshi's invasion.

[mindseye]

Agree with Combat Ingrid & Urban Ranger.

And having done so, why is there any political currency for China doing this?

It strikes a strong harmonic populist note. Most Chinese over 30 that I have asked hate the Japanese.

Younger Chinese have a complex love/hate relationship. They love Japanese fashion, music, movies, consumer electronics, anime, etc., while at the same time "hating" (or at least professing to hate) the Japanese themselves.


Actual classroom exchange on the topic:

mindseye: Why do you want to study English? Why not Japanese?
Student: I hate the Japanese.
mindseye: Why?
Student: (pause) I don't know.

Those who do have a reason usually point out the barbarity coupled with the lack of remorse, even today, decades later.