Can we kick some real terrorist ass please?

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by skywalker
The diplo - you aren't on the scale of fez...

(trying to back away from being isulting )

thanks.

It's just I found that in this case, I've been agreeing with the liberals in the thread who say that you are not providing any real solutions, just "we should get rid of them".

Ok, you want realistic solutions.

1) Increase our human intelligence in order to get more info on possible terrorist plans.

2) Freeze all financial assets of any organization that helps fund terrorist groups.

3) Use diplomacy to get Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia to stop support for terrorism. If they refuse, threaten to cut ties or trade sanctions.

4) Use pin point military strikes against any terrorist infrastructure like training camps. Use covert ops to capture or kill terrorist leaders.

5) Allow Israel to defend itself against terrorism

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Odin




I think the only thing that will stop terrorism is to improve the quality of life for those people, they go to terrorism because they are desprate. We also need to expose the fundy Imams as the frauds they are.

if making ppl rich was the only way to stop terrorism then 3/4ths of the globe would be suicide bombers.

try again.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by yavoon


so ur going to get through to simple earth grown folk w/ highly intellectualized jargon and pleas of convoluted logic? sounds like a plan captain.

This is what he's saying in such a manner as to make people think he is intelligent: shooting them pisses them off, so there'll be more of them.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by The diplomat
Ok, you want realistic solutions.

1) Increase our human intelligence in order to get more info on possible terrorist plans.

2) Freeze all financial assets of any organization that helps fund terrorist groups.

3) Use diplomacy to get Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia to stop support for terrorism. If they refuse, threaten to cut ties or trade sanctions.

4) Use pin point military strikes against any terrorist infrastructure like training camps. Use covert ops to capture or kill terrorist leaders.

5) Allow Israel to defend itself against terrorism

You are missing the point. The large part of the debate about terrorism is about SPECIFIC policies (like Iraq). Most people don't oppose any of what you said, just how to do it.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by skywalker


This is what he's saying in such a manner as to make people think he is intelligent: shooting them pisses them off, so there'll be more of them.

I don't doubt they dislike being shot at. I do doubt that irrational motives suchas islamic terorrism can be broken down to such absurdly simple logic as "send them flowers and they'll like us"

[Dom Pedro II]

Odin: The terrorist leaders aren't destitute. Almost all of the suicide bombers aren't poor... so that doesn't work.

1) Increase our human intelligence in order to get more info on possible terrorist plans.

2) Freeze all financial assets of any organization that helps fund terrorist groups.

Those first two are mutually exclusive.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
force isnt also a sociological phenomenon. The fact that something is a sociological phenomenon doesnt mean you dont use force to address it. Theft is a sociological phenomenon - if a person can make more money theiving than any other way they will steal. You can raise the amount they get from any other way. You can make stealing less lucrative, by law enforcement. Or you can do both. The best strategy will vary from situation to situation.

Somebody can gain self esteem and a redemption from cultural failure by commiting an act of terrorism. You can provide him another source of self esteem and redemption. Or you can show him that terrorism is a failure, and so eliminate it as a source of self esteem. There are difficulties with both approaches. So you used whichever works best. In the current situation, we can improve the alternatives by spreading liberal democracy. But for lots of folks that just wont work - running them down and arresting them (or killing when the wont go quietly) is necessary. In addition, whenever we do try to create demo, they will do their best to oppose it.

Terrorism is NOT a social problem. Terror attacks are not going to go away just by improving economic or social conditions. These terror groups have very specific political goals. Groups like Hamas want to wipe out Israel because they fanatically believe the land is holy to muslims. Al Queda wants to impose their brand of Islam on their fellows muslims. Terror is their military means to those ends. Terror serves those extreme interests.

[Dom Pedro II]

Terrorism is NOT a social problem. Terror attacks are not going to go away just by improving economic or social conditions. These terror groups have very specific political goals. Groups like Hamas want to wipe out Israel because they fanatically believe the land is holy to muslims. Al Queda wants to impose their brand of Islam on their fellows muslims. Terror is their military means to those ends. Terror serves those extreme interests.

It isn't just that though... terrorist doctrine is all well and good, but the fact is that the leaders are whores who will take money from anybody including the people they supposedly hate. And we've worked with them in the past. Even the Israelis used Hamas to their advantage. It's ultimately about power... the terrorist leaders want to stay in power, and they've been relatively successful about it. Were it easy to kill them, they'd already be dead.

For the bombers though, it is about the doctrine, though they are too foolish to realize that all they're doing is pissing people off.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Odin
I think the only thing that will stop terrorism is to improve the quality of life for those people, they go to terrorism because they are desprate. We also need to expose the fundy Imams as the frauds they are.

Then you think wrong. Terrorists are most likely educated and from the middle class. This is mostly attibutable to the filth which passes for education & poisons the minds of young in the Arab world.

Arab schools make the Hitler Youth seem like whole-sum family fun.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by skywalker
You are missing the point. The large part of the debate about terrorism is about SPECIFIC policies (like Iraq). Most people don't oppose any of what you said, just how to do it.

Ok. Well, I happen to think that the war in Iraq is an effective response to the war on terror. If we hadn't gone in, Saddam would still be in power, able to massacre innocent civilians, and increase his power. It was not in the interests of the US to have a despot like Saddam able to threaten his neighbors. Sure things are messy now, but they will improve. The alternative was not in our interests.

[Kuciwalker]

I agree there.

[Whaleboy]

force isnt also a sociological phenomenon

What I mean is that terrorists are an extreme end of society that hates the West. We remove that reason for them hating us, and then leave them be as much as possible for a while, and they will stop hating us. Part of that will be because they realise they are dependent on us economically, thus hatred would move to popular support for a love fest. More extreme elements would still remain, but they would be far reduced, and easily taken out by the military or intelligence, and not be replaced (providing one judges it correctly).

Somebody can gain self esteem and a redemption from cultural failure by commiting an act of terrorism. You can provide him another source of self esteem and redemption. Or you can show him that terrorism is a failure, and so eliminate it as a source of self esteem.

A tactical failure? Of course, tactically, even 9/11 was negligible. Unlike the Bush rhetoric, terrorism represents no threat to Western civilisation, the biggest threat is the pollution that we are pumping into the air, and the rate of oil consumption. However, terrorism is very very successful at causing mass panic, terror, overreactions, and a forceful response, making it easier for people like Bin Laden to justify a jihad. So far, everything has been played into the terrorists hands! . Lets not forget, these people have little or no regard for their own lives, they are perfectly to happy to die in battle, in a suicide bombing, or an assassination. In any case, killed by the enemies hands makes them a martyr.

So you used whichever works best. In the current situation, we can improve the alternatives by spreading liberal democracy.

Cultural imperialism/absolutism will simply have the opposite effect. I have yet to be convinced that Arab culture is compatible with Western democracy!!! . In either case, if you are looking to anger them in the short, long and very long term, you couldn't plan a better method than what is being done and proposed!

But for lots of folks that just wont work - running them down and arresting them (or killing when the wont go quietly) is necessary.

Not at all, especially when their death will anger many more people, polarise the situation more, martyr the terrorist, and cause another one to take his place.

so ur going to get through to simple earth grown folk w/ highly intellectualized jargon and pleas of convoluted logic? sounds like a plan captain.

Yavoon, you are absolutely correct, I'm not going to get through to people with the concepts I use and the means by which I get them across. On the other hand, I dont care, someone else can do it.. I was never very good at communicating with "simple earth grown folk"

Odin:

Dip: 1-3 are good, couldn't have put it better myself. 4 and 5 are fantastic if you want to have more terrorism, more angry people, and a conflict that will last for years.

if making ppl rich was the only way to stop terrorism then 3/4ths of the globe would be suicide bombers.

try again.

I think he means we address the unfettered capitalism running globalisation, the cultural imperialism and the economic imperialism adopted in the foreign policies of the West in the past few decades. On the other hand, Shangri-la would also be nice .

This is what he's saying in such a manner as to make people think he is intelligent:

Reading my post, I cant see how else I would have put it, and I'm not about to set about deliberately dumbing down what I say, so as to not alienate those who cant understand it!

I do doubt that irrational motives suchas islamic terorrism can be broken down to such absurdly simple logic as "send them flowers and they'll like us"

First thing they tell you in critical analysis classes is avoid ad hominems and strawmen. Read my above post, my proposition is nothing like that.

[Dom Pedro II]

War in Iraq has little or nothing to dow with the War on Terror despite the admin's and the media's efforts to link the two.

Regardless of whether or not you think Iraq is better off without Saddam (and I do), the fact is that this whole circus has really done nothing to further the goals of destroying terrorism.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Oerdin

Then you think wrong. Terrorists are most likely educated and from the middle class. This is mostly attibutable to the filth which passes for education & poisons the minds of young in the Arab world.

Arab schools make the Hitler Youth seem like whole-sum family fun.

OOPS! My bad.

Then ME countries should ban religious schools. KILL THE SORCE of the fundies' BS.

[Dom Pedro II]

Furthermore, we were VERY interested in Saddam being able to threaten his neighbors when he was our man in the Middle East.