Can a Jew be a Christian and still be a Jew?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Elok

Anyway, what do you think of the illumination of the Nous?

Orthodox psychotherapy?

http://www.roca.org/OA/162/162e.htm

[Ned]

Is there a fear in the Jewish community about such conversions? To understand my point here, it is illegal in most Moslem countries to even try to convert a Muslim. In india, Hindu's resent Christians who try to convert Hindu's. But with Jews, I would suspect the instinct to oppose conversions is stronger - almost a survival instinct - given their relatively few numbers and given their historically oppressed status.

[Elok]

I can't believe you actually looked the phrase up; I was just joking. Actually it's not just pop culture, the nous is an oooooold concept, and in the heart of our theology. Now try "theiosis."
Anyway, you seem to be viewing this as a matter of philosophy, not religion, which might be why you're so puzzled about the vehemence. The statement that Jesus was a cool dude with neat ideas and can't we all agree on that would be okay were it not for the fact that it makes absolutely no sense in a theological context. I'm not justifying persecution, I'm only saying that from some points of view it's a far more significant concept than you make it out to be.
Anyway, I don't think it's borrowed material as he insists, but Heresson is right about the origin of the trinity as a concept. I don't see why it would have to be gleaned from middleman hellenised Jews seeing as the Greeks converted to Christianity rather early.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ned
Is there a fear in the Jewish community about such conversions? To understand my point here, it is illegal in most Moslem countries to even try to convert a Muslim. In india, Hindu's resent Christians who try to convert Hindu's. But with Jews, I would suspect the instinct to oppose conversions is stronger - almost a survival instinct - given their relatively few numbers and given their historically oppressed status.

There is an extremely large fear of agressive conversions of Jews by Christians. Traditionally in Europe, the Jewish comunities were subjected to highly agressive methods and strategies to force them to convert to Christianity. In the case of Portugal shortly after the beginnings of the Spanish Inquisition in 1492, all the Jews in the country were forced at swordpoint to be "baptised" and therefore be converted to Christianity. This rather ridiculous rite was treated as legitimate by the rest of Christian Europe, and the individuals who were subjected to it were considered heretics and typically killed by agents of the Inquisition if they tried to continue practicing Jewish beliefs.

In more recent times, Jews were compelled to have to listen to priests who would attempt to convert them with whatever arguments they could devise. Jews were also subjected to all sorts of restrictions which were promptly lifted if they converted to Christianity. As late as 1858, Jewish children who had been allegedly baptised in secret by Christian servants were taken from their families and raised as Christians! Family members were often prohibted from having any contact with these children. See this link on the incident involving Edgardo Mortara for more info. You should pick up the book The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara if you want further information on the incident.

The Jewish fear of conversion is so strong that at least traditionally in the Askenazic variant of Judaism, any Jew who converted to Christianity was considered dead and the entire Jewish community would permently refuse to speak to this individual, and this included the person's very own family. Admitedly this practice is not generally done today, but many Jewish families become extremely upset if someone converts to Christianity or marries a Christian. See "Fiddler on the Roof" for a depiction of this phenomenon.

[Ned]

Mordoch, interesting link. Still, history might explain antipahy to Catholics who attempt to convert Jews. It does not explain the antipathy to the Jews who convert.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sava
Being Jewish has little to do with your ancestry. Sure, the vast majority of Jews can probably trace back to long lines of Jewish heritage, but there are large numbers of Jews in Africa that did not come (originally) from Israel.

Actually, they can. The vast majority of Jews anywhere in the world can trace at least part of their ancestry to Israel. And they followed the trade routes and spread themselves all over the ancient world. African Jews can trace their ancestry back to Israel through at least two routes.

The Lemba's Jewish ancestors came from Yemen originally, which, before the rise of Islam, had once been a Jewish kingdom (until Ethiopia came and crushed it for supressing Christians). The Fulani on the other hand came south from Egypt, and at one time actually took over Ethiopia. Queen Judith rule Ethiopia for a short time before Christian Numidia overthrew her.

Judaism is a religion. Jewish is an ethnicity.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ned
Mordoch, interesting link. Still, history might explain antipahy to Catholics who attempt to convert Jews. It does not explain the antipathy to the Jews who convert.

Historically, many Jewish converts to Christianity were the nastiest anti-semites and used their supposed "true knowledge" of Judaism to justify anti-semitism. An example of this phenomenon is the convert JOSEPH PFEFFERKORN.

Obtains Edicts Against Hebrew Books.

With a letter from Kunigunde, sister of the German emperor Maximilian, Pfefferkorn went to her imperial brother and succeeded in influencing the emperor, who already had expelled the Jews from his own domains of Styria, Carinthia, and Carniola, to promulgate an edict to the effect that all Jewish writings against Christianity should be destroyed. This edict (dated Aug. 19, 1509) was followed by a second (dated Nov. 10, 1509), ordering the destruction of all Hebrew books except the Old Testament. Pfefferkorn went to Frankfort-on-the-Main in 1509, and on April 10, 1510, the Jews were forced to surrender all the books in their possession.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=246&letter=P

Some other examples are

Julius III had the Talmud burned in Rome and Venice upon denunciation by Solomon Romano, a converted Jew; Paul IV condemned it again at the request of another convert, Vittorio Eliano; Pius V and Clement VIII did likewise.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/lazare-anti.html#Chapter%20Five

[Heresson]

given their historically oppressed status.

I don't consider Jews especially opressed in history, except for last century. And when they had a chance to opress and force conversions of others, they did it (Idumea or whatever this region was called; Nagran and Yemen).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Heresson
I don't consider Jews especially opressed in history

They were regularily oppressed by Christianty until about the last century. Everytime something went wrong, and the angry mob had to be appeased, the Jews were made scapegoats. They also suffered from strong segregation even at the times they weren't especially oppressed.

However, it is true they suffered from little oppression in the Muslim world. I have no idea for the Jews further East (India, China) and further South (Africa)

[Dr Strangelove]

Has anyone here ever read the book of Job? In the opening passages it places God as having a discussion with "his sons " when satan walks in to brew up some trouble.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Spiffor

They were regularily oppressed by Christianty until about the last century. Everytime something went wrong, and the angry mob had to be appeased, the Jews were made scapegoats. They also suffered from strong segregation even at the times they weren't especially oppressed.

The same or better as Christians under Muslims. Nothing special. Look on it in another way; Christians were the only religious minority that lived in Europe-until reformation. In comparison to the treatement of pagans or heretics...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


I also think it is a pity that Jews "persecute" other Jews who believe differently from the main Jewish orthodoxy on this issue. This kind of discrimination and hatred is plain wrong.

When is the last time mainstream Jews (not just Orthodox) made Jews for Jesus wear yellow starts? Or live in ghettos? Or limited what jobs they could engage in? Or denied them a say in politics? Or expelled them? Or seized their property? Or sent them to death camps? Feh!

Jews have every right to say that a given opinion is incompatible with Judaism, just as members of every religion do. And when a group like Jews for Jesus targets Jews for conversion, we have every right to resent it, and to create campaigns like Jews for Judaism to present our side of the case to our own young people.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


The same or better as Christians under Muslims. Nothing special. Look on it in another way; Christians were the only religious minority that lived in Europe-until reformation. In comparison to the treatement of pagans or heretics...

hardly better than Christians under muslims - massacres in Germany in the 1200's, massacres associated with the passage of crusaders through europe. Expulsion from england in the 1290's. Massacres associated with the black death. Expulsion from France in the 1390's. Expulsions from various German states. Expulsion from Spain and Portugal in the 1490's. Massacres in Ukraine in the 1690's.

If it had "only" been limits in dress, limits in jobs, ghettoization the Jews would have been far better off.

And of course the majority of Christians did not live in muslim countries. Whereas the majority of Jews did live in Christian countries.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor



However, it is true they suffered from little oppression in the Muslim world.

Not quite true Spiffor. While massacres/expulsions were less common in the muslim world (but not unknown) they were "dhimmis" subject to special taxes, and various limitations on rights. In some cases this resulted in greater or lesser degrees of effective oppression. They were certainly not equals.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
However, it is true they suffered from little oppression in the Muslim world.

No it isn't. They didn't suffer as much as Jews in the Christian world, and there were certain times when Jews were able to live peacefully (albeit as second class citizens), but there were also massacres, destruction of synagogues and forced conversions that occured in places like Spain, North Africa and the Middle East (eg. the razing of the Jewish quarter and murdering of 5,000 Jews in Granada in the 11th century.)