Can a Jew be a Christian and still be a Jew?

[Elok]

Why not? We Orthodox call the Catholics heretics and they outnumber us about five to one.
And so far as I know, the dithering about Constantine trying to reconcile Christianity with paganism is just that, dithering. Many Christian feasts were timed to coincide with Pagan ones, but the purpose in those cases was not reunion but an attempt to eclipse the old religions. Another, if not little known, then at least little-mentioned fact, is that the Christian faith as a seperate entity really came into its own in the reign of Constantine. The council of Nicea standardized the New Testament(which, incidentally, is why all the protestants who talk about following the bible rather than institutions of men are IMO laughably ignorant), established the creed as a precise statement of the faith, and wiped out the Arian heresy, whose real crime was not so much in asserting the humanity of Christ as in denying his eternal nature and calling him a creation of God rather than the unoriginate son. Most of the standard liturgical services, while based on earlier models, were written around that time as well. This was the time of St. John Chrysostom and St. Nicholas. Constantine wasn't exactly a minor chapter in Christian history.
BTW, try to include complex theological phrases in every post you make in this thread. I think it scares Sava away...
Anyway, what do you think of the illumination of the Nous?

[Az]

The catholics outnumber jews 200 to 1.

Seriously, though, not to mention that mainstream christianity is heresy to jews, and the concept of the trinity is looked down upon as heretical polytheism in disguise, judaism doesn't accept jesus as a prophet, either. The christian POV on Muhammad is very similar, indeed. The teachings of Jesus can be only valid if he was the messanger of god, and as I said, the POV is rejected by judaism.

For me, personally, I don't care what a person does. But considering oneself as a jew, and thinking jesus is god's messanger is not correct, since that's one of the ways a jew defines himself, "Jesus is not god, messiah, prophet, or whatever". I am perfectly in one line with the party line on that.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Well, at first glance, if you can have aethist Jews, whjy not Christian Jews? 9though this assumes Jews to be purely a national group that can be distinguished to some extent from religion). Of course, you do have "Jews for Jesus", which may be along the lines of this question: maybe you should look up their website.

Personally, I don;t know how it would work.One question is, do you still have to follow the Law, which Christians no longer do. The other thing is that the Messiah is a man, perhaps with devine backing but NOT devine. I doubt you can believe in the Trinity and still consider yourself a Jew following the law, including no God other than the true God.

According to jewish religious law, a born jew remains a jew for life whatever they do or believe. To Judaism, Jews are not members of a religious groups in the western sense - nor are they simply a nation or ethnic group - they are a people whose mission and duty it is to serve G-D and to follow the laws he has set out for them. They do not cease to have this obligation just because they fail to acknowledge it - on the other hand the peoplehood has religious meaning only in terms of the obligation. The same applies, in theory, to a Jew by conversion, though in that case apostasy will lead to questioning the sincerity (and thus validity) of the original conversion.

The folk attitude is somewhat different. The folk for the most part will consider a Jeiwsh atheist to still be member of the jewish people, but not a jew who converts to Christianity. THis is undoubtedly an artifact of the historical circumstance of the Jewish people. For hundreds of years Jews in Europe lived in walled off ghettos, and were limited in their social intercourse with non-Jews. A jew who converted to christianity left the ghetto, and not only gained access to the wider world, but lost his contact with the jewish community (due to the legal limits on social intercourse between jews and christians) He lost contact even with his own immediate family. A jew who simply declared himself an atheist, otoh, stayed within ghetto walls, and continued to share the fate of the Jewish community.

IMHO, this is why the "folk" are quite willing to accept Jewish socialists of many varieties, but generally disavow Jewish communists. The Bolsheviks were much more insistent on the disavowal of Jewish ethnic identiy than were socialists (despite a brief period of communist tolerance for secular Yiddish culture, to advance in the CPSU a Jew had to be 100% Russified)

[Timexwatch]

Originally posted by Mordoch

Maybe, but the group deliberately confuses Jews specificly regarding whether they can remain religious Jews and believe Jesus was the Messiah. You really won't find much confusion among most Jews on this issue. Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

I don't want to be a pendant, but "Allah" is a generic term for god in Arabic. Christian Arabs call god "Allah". You point still stands though.

My friends who hate the Jews for Jesus hate them pretty much because they see them as self-hating, confused Jews who can't buy into either Christianity or Judiasm.

Azazel:

The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Elok
He's up at the Sleague giving me crap for insufficient research, that's where he is. Go up and drag him down.
Anyway, since I am the first person to respond to this thread who does not classify religions as different forms of mental illness, the reason for Messianic Jews, as they typically call themselves, is a respect for Christ combined with an unwillingness to give up Jewish tradition in the form of switching sabbaths, celebrating easter instead of passover, abandoning circumcision, etc., which the Christian churches insisted on from the early years. They want to believe, but at the same time they don't want to abandon their identities. Know what I mean?

Messianic Jew is an oxymoron.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Mordoch
Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

The funniest part is that, according to the Muslim Apocalyptic lore, Jesus will come back from the Heaven as a general fighting for the Muslim armies, and will call all Christians to follow Muslim teachings

(I strongly suggest everybody to read about the Muslim Apocalypse - it really is a peplum of sorts )

[Az]

The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it.

A. don't expect to get it. It's irrational.
B. there still is that 'jesus is a messiah' issue.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Timexwatch


I
Azazel:

The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it.

youre spending too much time with Unitarians, or Christian scientists, or liberal members of mainstream denominations. Most all the mainstream protestant denoms (lutheran, anglican, presby, methodist, etc) are officially trinitarian. And of course the fundies are very much so. IIRC neither Luther nor Calvin ever rejected trinitarianism.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel

The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it.

A. don't expect to get it. It's irrational.
B. there still is that 'jesus is a messiah' issue.

yeah, when we all know that R. Menachem Mendel Schneerson was really the messiah

We want Moshiach NOW

[Kuciwalker]

Actually, I am the messiah.

BOW DOWN TO ME!!!!

[Heresson]

However, there has always been a substantial controversy about the nature of Jesus, even among Christians. Arianism, which was rejected at the council of Nicea, held that Jesus was a man.

Nope, but that's the common misunderstanding. And pretty old. There were parts of Christianity that didn't accept divinity of the Christ, but in earlier times than Arian controversy started. Arians considered Jesus to be divine, just not (I miss an English word) without a start; they claimed He separated from the Father in some moment in time; the official version is that they (he) both existed from the beginning of time.
Renaissance antitrinitaries (the idea started in Germany and Italy I think, but it was persecuted there, so it spreaded the most in Poland and that's why they were also known as "Polish brothers"; they were formally banned from Poland to Prussia for supporting Sweden during the 1655-1660 "flood" war) were known as "arians", due to the similar misunderstanding as yours

Skywalker, funny, but in bad taste.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Mordoch

You're still missing the point. The belief that Jesus is the Messiah and he has already appeared on earth is a significant departure on its own. Jews believe that the Messiah has not come yet and any departure from that point is heresy and has been treated as such when groups of Jews have decided that various individuals were the Messiah throughout the ages. You could probably make an argument that Christians are actually Jewish heretics, but Jews generally avoid this point since we tend to be outnumbered by the Christians and calling someone a heretic is a good way to piss them off.

Mordoch, whether Jesus was a God, the Son of God, Man or the Messiah or what ever, does not subtract one iota from his teachings. It is a pity that for over 1000 years Christians have "persecuted" Jews for not believing that Christ was the son of God and the Messiah. I also think it is a pity that Jews "persecute" other Jews who believe differently from the main Jewish orthodoxy on this issue. This kind of discrimination and hatred is plain wrong.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Heresson
Skywalker, funny, but in bad taste.

Thank you

[Heresson]

Oh, Elok explained it before me. sorry.
What I wish to ass is that the divine trinity isn't a "catholic concept". It was a Greek philosophical concept first adapted by some of hellenised Alexandrian Jews. Christians took it from them. Which doesn't mean it can't be right. Muslim blabling about it as the main proof against Christianity is silly... Does it matter if God is in 1 or 3 persons? Isn't it about the spirit of religion? Isn't concept of God itself the same
"strange"? Isn't God Almighty? If so, can't He divide himself in as many operation forces as He wishes?

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ned
I also think it is a pity that Jews "persecute" other Jews who believe differently from the main Jewish orthodoxy on this issue. This kind of discrimination and hatred is plain wrong.

The reason there is such dislike of groups such as Jews for Jesus is that they are believed to be run by either individuals who deliberately converted to Christianity some time ago, or by Chritians who are simply trying to trick Jews into converting. The resentment is due to the group's intellectual dishonesty instead of at least being straighforward with its membership on the fact it wants to convert them. The actual general membership of the group is generally viewed as confused and an object of pity. With Christians themselves, I don't see much in the way of actual discrimination by Jews against them, its mostly a view that they are simply misguided, and some resentment of their past persecutions against the Jewish people.