Can a Jew be a Christian and still be a Jew?

[Sirotnikov]

I view a jew from 3 different angles.

You can be a jew if you believe in Judaism.

You can be a jew if you have jewish ancestry.

You can be a jew if you feel part of a Jewish nationality (most probably zionistic one, but not necessarily. ie, it's ok to see yourself as part of the "jewish nation" and NOT think Israel has to be your homland.)

Now all these 3 categories are not the same, but they do mix. Most people who join the faith, also join the nationality, as in, see themselves part of the jewish nation (be they zionists or not).

Most people who have jewish ancestry do feel part of the Jewish nationality and until recently, usually observed at least some of the laws of the faith.


But I do accept that a person can be Jewish (or "hebrew" though Jews have mingled with people since ...) and believe in a different god.

Of course when you do that, you usually exclude yourself from the nationality, and in a few generations practically lose the jewish "blood-line" and thus stop being jewish.


But if a group of jews do feel part of the nationality, do only mary other jews by blood-line, but all believe in a different god (or messiah), then they remain jews to me.

However many of my friends disagree, and they don't consider such people Jewish.

[Az]

A jew can be atheistic, but cannot hold a different religion other than judaism.

I am an intersted party, though, so don't trust me.

I'd say it's a thing of nationality and culture. people who want to make it religious or ethnic are wrong.

[Ned]

In Exodus, when the Jews began worshipping false gods, they did not cease to be Jews. They merely sinned.

According to the Rabbi, Jesus was a Jew, albeit, possibly a sinner according to one point of view.

But these posts do confirm that being Jewish is primarily enthnicity througout history.

Would Israel cease to be a Jewish state if a majority come to believe Christ was the Messiah? Not necessarily if they continue to follow their religion in all other matters. Believing that Christ was the Messiah does not require one to believe in a false god.

[Jon Miller]

I think that it is cultural

like circumcission and maternal line thing

Jon Miller

[Zevico]

I think the view if someone converts to Christianity is that the person isn't counted as "Jewish" for a minyan (you need 10 people+ in Judaism to do certain prayers, such a person wouldn't count), but does not need to convert should he want to be Jewish again.

[Timexwatch]

The guy sounds like a "Jew for Jesus", which is, at least among my University (40%+ Jewish) a group that is spurned by most observant Jews and disliked among the nominal ones. Every Jew I know has almost gotten into a fistfight with someone from the group.

[Ned]

I also think, and correct me if I am wrong, that one is "born" Jewish. One is not born Christian. He or she is born German or American, for example. He or she is instead babtized Christian.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Timexwatch
The guy sounds like a "Jew for Jesus", which is, at least among my University (40%+ Jewish) a group that is spurned by most observant Jews and disliked among the nominal ones. Every Jew I know has almost gotten into a fistfight with someone from the group.

Why?

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ned

Why?

"Jews for Jesus" is an intellectually dishonest group who attempt to trick Jews into converting to Christianity. Basicly they tell potentially socially issolated or otherwise viewed to be vulnerable Jews that they can recognize Jesus as the Messiah and still remain religiously Jewish. The group keeps many of the other Jewish customs and religious practices so that Jews don't feel as uncomfortable joining the group. The ultimate goal of the group is to get its members to convert fully to Christianity. What I find so offensive about the group is how instead of letting people know they are trying to convert them like most religious groups, they try confusing people into converting to Christianity without knowing what they are doing.

[Ned]

Confused? Simply look at this thread. Being Jewish enthically and being Jewish from a religious point of view are not necessarily the same thing, but they seem to be the same thing in the case of in the view of many.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ned
Confused? Simply look at this thread. Being Jewish enthically and being Jewish from a religious point of view are not necessarily the same thing, but they seem to be the same thing in the case of in the view of many.

Maybe, but the group deliberately confuses Jews specificly regarding whether they can remain religious Jews and believe Jesus was the Messiah. You really won't find much confusion among most Jews on this issue. Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Ned
I had no idea that Christianity said that one should not celebrate Passover. Catholics do not celebrate Passover, but to I was not aware of a prohibition on its celebration by Christians.

Well, the resurrection is seen theologically as the new passover, where an innocent dies, this time voluntarily, to save god's people from death. Haven't you ever heard Christ referred to as the "lamb of God?" The early Christian church therefore saw Easter as the ultimate passover and the fulfillment of the law. Similarly, Sunday, as the day of ressurection, became the new Sabbath, at least in some circles. I didn't know there were any Christian groups that worship on Saturdays instead. Just goes to show ya...

[Ned]

Elok, Sunday became the day of worship at the instance of Constantine, IIRC, at the council of Nicea. He wanted, among other things, to make Christianity compatible with the Roman religion that worshiped on “Sun” day, the day of Apollo, the Sun god. Until that time, Christians observed the same Sabbath as the Jews.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Mordoch

Maybe, but the group deliberately confuses Jews specificly regarding whether they can remain religious Jews and believe Jesus was the Messiah. You really won't find much confusion among most Jews on this issue. Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

At least accoding to Christianity, God the Father is Yahweh. So, belief that Jesus was the Messiah does not require one to reject God.

However, there has always been a substantial controversy about the nature of Jesus, even among Christians. Arianism, which was rejected at the council of Nicea, held that Jesus was a man.

My own position is that it makes no difference whatsoever whether Jesus was the Son of God or not to find value in his teachings. It is indeed unfortunate that this issue has divided us for two thousand years.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ned


At least accoding to Christianity, God the Father is Yahweh. So, belief that Jesus was the Messiah does not require one to reject God.

However, there has always been a substantial controversy about the nature of Jesus, even among Christians. Arianism, which was rejected at the council of Nicea, held that Jesus was a man.

My own position is that it makes no difference whatsoever whether Jesus was the Son of God or not to find value in his teachings. It is indeed unfortunate that this issue has divided us for two thousand years.

You're still missing the point. The belief that Jesus is the Messiah and he has already appeared on earth is a significant departure on its own. Jews believe that the Messiah has not come yet and any departure from that point is heresy and has been treated as such when groups of Jews have decided that various individuals were the Messiah throughout the ages. You could probably make an argument that Christians are actually Jewish heretics, but Jews generally avoid this point since we tend to be outnumbered by the Christians and calling someone a heretic is a good way to piss them off.